Hydration: It's More Than Just Water

Dr. Amanda Frick:

This is The Thorne Podcast, the show that navigates the complex world of wellness and explores the latest science behind diet, supplements and lifestyle approaches to good health. I'm Dr. Amanda Frick, the Vice President of Medical Affairs at Thorne and a naturopathic doctor. As a reminder, the recommendations made in this podcast are the recommendations of the individuals who express them and not the recommendations of Thorne. Statements in this podcast have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any products mentioned are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Hi, everyone, and welcome to The Thorne Podcast. Thanks for giving us a listen. And if you like what you hear, tell a friend about the show. Our guest this week is Dr. Jennifer Greer. She's the Director of Medical Education in Thorne's Department of Medical Affairs.

Great to have you on the show again, Dr. Greer.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

It's great to be here, Dr. Frick. It's so fun to record these episodes with you and talk about things that I think we're both interested in.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Well, I mean, I'm really interested in wellness practices and people talk about that a lot. Like we talk about what the best practices are for health and what it is that you help to balance your well-being, so what are some of the things that you do every day to help for your “hashtag selfcare”?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Yes, I have several of these that I love. My first one, and I think this one is actually great for the topic we're talking about today, is drinking water. I think it's so important to drink enough water every day. I keep a bottle of water with me while I'm working all day long. I try to make sure I'm going back and refilling it several times a day. I notice that it helps with things, like my energy throughout the day feels better if I'm drinking enough water. I'm less likely to feel headachy in the afternoon if I'm drinking enough water. I feel like my skin looks and feels better if I'm drinking enough water. My digestion is going better. And I'm not as snacky throughout the day, especially in the afternoon when you get in that it's-been-a-busy-day lull, and maybe I'm a little stressed out and I want to reach for a snack. But if I'm well hydrated, drinking plenty of water, I feel less snacky, and I like that.

But also one of my favorite things to pair with water is fiber. So, I think if I had a one-two well-being punch for that, it would be water and fiber. If you're drinking enough water every day and you're taking in the adequate amount of fiber every day, so much more in your body's going to work the way that it should work, especially your digestion. And your digestion, of course, supports everything else that's going on. So I am a water and fiber girl. It doesn't have to be a fiber supplement. That can be a nice way to actually get both water and fiber, because you're going to mix your fiber in your water. But fruit, lots of berries and things are great sources of both water and fiber. Melons, apples, pears. Oh, so many good things.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

One of my favorite things was to show my patients how many grams of fiber are in raspberries. It's insane.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

It is. Raspberries are such a great source of fiber and people don't even realize that. And they're delicious. I mean, I love raspberries.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Same. OK.

Well, I mean, you already gave a hint. So, you gave it away, but I'll intro it anyway. It's hydration. Today, we're going to talk about hydration. It's a word we hear all the time, but how often do we actually stop and think about how it impacts our health? It's not just about quenching your thirst. It's about keeping your body functioning at its best for all the reasons that you talk about. Energy, skin health, cognitive function, digestion, hydration plays a critical role in all of this. But what does proper hydration actually look like? Is water alone enough? Do we need to be thinking about electrolytes? Are there other nutrients we should be talking about?

So, today, we're going to do a deep dive into everything hydration related, what it is, why it matters, and how to make sure your hydration routine is working for you. 

So, if we get back to the basics, how much should we be drinking each day and does it have to be water? I think that's a great start. I've seen so many different things. There's apps. I tried to use the app that I water my little plant to make sure I drink enough water. I will be the first to say, I am a “water fail,” but what's a reasonable thing, or a reasonable goal or way to think about it for myself or for other people for how much water they should be drinking in a day?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

That's a great question. I think that a lot of us were taught when we were kids that you need eight glasses of water a day. So, eight 8-ounce glasses of water a day, which equals 64 ounces of water per day. But the truth is, it varies a little bit from person to person about what you really need. Some of it has to do with things like body size. All of the cells in your body need hydration, and so if you have a larger body, you're going to have more cells, you're going to need a little bit more water than a smaller person might. So, there are some factors within that. But I was also, I would say, a “water fail” until I lived in Arizona. And when I moved to the desert, I was thirsty all the time and that's when I learned how to drink water. I learned how to carry water with me when I was going places, which is one of my favorite tips actually. 

If you're going to be out and about during the day, having a refillable water bottle with you so that you can have it in the car when you need it, when you're out and about, so it's there. I think people often don't drink enough water just because they're busy. They're out doing things, and they don't even think about it. And then the next thing you know, you're really, really thirsty, but just some basic things like that are important. And really, as we talked about, you're going to feel better throughout the day if you are drinking enough water, your energy is going to stay more maintained, you're going to have less of the afternoon slump, less of that brain foggy feeling. And really just, overall, have a better day.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

But I've seen before that you should take your body weight, and halve it, and then make that ounces and that's how much water you should drink a day. Is that just some crazy thing I read on the Internet, or is there anything to that?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

There is something to that. I think that it's not fully fleshed out that that's the perfect amount for everybody, but it's a really good goal in that way. What I also like about that is, it's variable, too. So, if you think about a person who has... Right now especially people are talking a lot about weight loss medications, or they're maybe experiencing a change in weight because they've started a medication, and that could mean that when you're starting that process, you might need more water. And then over time, as your body is smaller, you might need less. So, that guideline of basing it off of your weight is a good idea as a target to reach for it each day. It's not perfect, but it's a good starter.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think that people really resonate with things... We all have our motivation for why we do things, but one thing that works well is to remind people it's really difficult to lose weight if you're dehydrated, and you have to drink enough water so you can lose weight. So, what's up with that? Why does that happen?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Right. Well, your body needs enough water to process things and eliminate them from your body. So, everything that's happening, all of those metabolic processes that are going on, they create waste materials, and that has to leave your body. And it's going to leave your body through sweat, through urine, through stool. So, you need those things to be working properly. And for those to work properly, you need water for all of that. You need water in order for yourselves to do what they need to do. You need water in order for your body to eliminate those waste products. So, it's a really important part of how your body functions to have enough water.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I used to like to talk to my patients about how your fat cells are basically ways that your body shoves things away. It's like the nasty closet in the guest room, where it's not really organized and you're just putting things in there because then you don't have to look at them anymore. They're not circulating in your daily life, so you shove them in the closet, but your body's not going to want to open the door to the closet, or let people in there, or let your fat cells break and dissolve so you can get rid of them if it's keeping everything inside. So, you have to clean out the closet, get all those detox factors out of your fat cells because your body is going to protect itself, and won't release those fat stores until you get the toxins out, and water is such a huge component of that.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Yeah, agreed. That's such a great way to look at it.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. People used to say I was smart sometimes. [Laughs]

So, if I was doing really good, I'm super motivated, can I drink too much water? Is that a thing? What are the effects of too little and too much, and how would I know?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

That's a really good question. You can drink too much water. I've definitely heard of it happening. I have not personally ever seen someone who was drinking too much water. And when I'm saying that, I'm talking about your average healthy person who doesn't have... if you're not taking medications that would affect your hydration status, or anything like that. You would need to drink a very large volume of water for that to happen, for it to be problematic. But it can happen. It's just probably a much larger amount of water than you think, when you're thinking about it. Most people in general daily life are much further on the other side of it in that they are underhydrated. Maybe not fully dehydrated, but definitely underhydrated. So, your average person probably needs to increase their water intake more so than being afraid of drinking too much.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So, if we're moving beyond the basics, water is pretty basic, you can read about it, but what's up with electrolytes? What are electrolytes? Why are they important and how is that related to the topic of hydration?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

So, electrolytes, we'll take a, hopefully, painless trip back to science class with electrolytes, but basically electrolytes are molecules that carry a negative charge. So, if you remember back in your science classes, molecules are going to have either a positive charge, a negative charge, or a neutral charge. So, electrolytes are those that are going to help move substances across a membrane. 

Sodium is the most common one that people think of. So, people think of salt. Salt is made of sodium and chloride, and those are two electrolytes and they help your body move water, whether it's from the outside into your cells or from your cells to the outside. One of the ways that I always remember this from biochemistry is, “Where sodium goes, water follows.” So, electrolytes are really helping your body to stay more hydrated. There's something that your cells need in order to function properly. A lot of people are getting electrolytes from their food. Sometimes people who do things like exercise really heavily, or they're out in the heat for a long time, or they've been sick, might need additional electrolytes, and that's where electrolyte supplements can really be beneficial.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Makes sense. So, if I were looking for an electrolyte supplement, what are the things I want to see? And then conversely, what are the things I should watch out for?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

That's a really great question too. So, you're going to be looking for things like sodium and chloride first of all, potassium, maybe some other minerals like magnesium, possibly calcium in there as well. You might see some other things in an electrolyte supplement like taurine, which is an amino acid that your body also uses to support hydration processes. Those are all things that you can be looking for on the label.

Sugar is... I think this one can be a little bit... You should be careful with it because you don't want to really overly sweetened, but a part of moving water into your cells also involves sugar or glucose molecules as well. So, that statement I said before about “where sodium goes, water follows” also can be extended to, “Where sodium and sugar go, water follows.” So, you will see often electrolytes will have some sugar in them. What you don't want is excess or really, really high sugar in an electrolyte supplement or an electrolyte drink. Colors, flavors, artificial sweeteners, those are things to look for as well.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. Wouldn't it be nice if all supplement companies operated with a “No List,” and you knew you could never get an artificial color or sweetener?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

It would certainly make it so much easier when you're shopping.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

That's why Thorne offers great options for things like this. We never, ever are going to use an artificial sweetener or an artificial color. And you'll see that we're offering a new hydration line, so we're going to be offering a product called Daily Electrolytes in a variety of flavors as well as a variety pack. We're trying to get them into your lifestyle and make them easy to use, so they'll be in single-use packets. You can drop them in your water, take them with you, after the gym, in the morning, whatever works. We're really, really excited about that product and we hope you are too.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

You know what I love about a single-use electrolyte product like that is for travel, because a lot of people don't think about how drying it is to be on an airplane, but it actually is very, very drying. Also, a lot of times people don't want to drink on an airplane because it can be hard to get up and go to the bathroom. And then when you get to your destination, you're underhydrated. That can actually make jet lag worse. So, a little single-use electrolyte to throw in your bag is really nice to help you once you arrive where you're going. You can grab those, throw them in a bottle of water and good to go.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I love this pro tip. So good.

OK. So, then like you had said, some people want to avoid sugary drinks or you don't want to have too much sugar, if you're trying to be a person or you are a person who's avoiding sugary drinks, what other beverages besides water or electrolyte mixes are good sources of hydration?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

A lot of people love coconut water as a source of hydration. I've also seen some other really fun ones like pear water.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Ooh.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Asian pears particularly have a really high water content, and so I've seen really nice pear water like that that I've tried before. So, those can be nice. Again, you want to check the sugar content, so maybe you're looking for one that doesn't have added sugars. When you're doing those kinds of drinks, I personally am a big tea drinker and so I like a little herbal tea throughout the day mixed in with my water as well. 

There've been a lot of good studies around hydration that show that different forms of water, whether it is teas or a little bit of coffee, I think you have to be careful you don't want to spend your whole day just drinking tea and coffee and not ever having any other beverages, but there are lots of ways to get water into your system.

And then foods as well. We talked a little bit about fruit and I did mention specifically Asian pears, but melons, apples, berries, all have high water content. There are vegetables that are high in water content as well. So, you can use those as some additional sources to make sure you're getting water in your body.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I love your Asian pear reference. From a Traditional Chinese Medicine standpoint, Asian pear is for dryness and you would use it in dry seasons like fall, or you'd use it particularly if your lungs are dry. There's reasons why traditional Asian medicine is built the way it is from this energetic standpoint, but the physiology and the water content of the fruit and the use of it just makes so much sense. So, I've never seen pear water, but I'm totally going to find it after this. Just go shopping.

Then to the converse of that, you mentioned coffee or tea, but isn't caffeine something that's like an anti-water? Or what else is there besides caffeine or what are the other things to think about that are increasing your water debt, or giving you negative points on your hydration?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Yeah. It is a little tricky, like you mentioned, with coffee and tea because caffeine, and they also can have some other naturally occurring chemicals in them that are a little bit of a diuretic, which means that taking water out of your body. So, that's why you want a balance with those. But some other things to think about as well are going to be like alcoholic beverages, so those can be dehydrating. You want to make sure, if you are drinking alcohol, that you're getting plenty of water alongside it.

Sugary drinks, so drinks with a heavy sugar content, again, can affect your overall hydration balance. As we mentioned before, where sodium and sugar go, water follows. So, if you're drinking a lot of sugar, you might end up feeling a little bit extra puffy because the water's going into your cells at a higher level than you really need, or maybe some of it is hanging out outside of the cells, or you might be going to the bathroom more often.

So, those are the main ones that I would think about staying away from and really focusing on water as much as you can. I'm kind of a sparkling water girl, too, and so you want to be careful there again that you're not getting sugary sparkling water. But I love my little sparkling water maker that I have at home, and I'll do that, put a little bit of lemon-lime in there, or something like that. It's a great way to get your bubbles but also get some water in, too.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

That's a great idea.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Asking for a friend, if I put coconut water in my cocktail, is it OK?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

I mean, that's going to help, but it's not going to cancel it, so you should probably have some water, too.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

OK. All right. Fine. So, taking all that into account, what are some practical things that people can do to develop a hydration routine?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

One great one is, have a glass of water next to your bed when you go to bed at night. And when you get up first thing in the morning, chug your glass of water. So, get some water in to start the day and then you're starting it off hydrated. That's going to help. If you've got a refillable water bottle you can carry with you throughout the day, so you've always got something at your side. If you're feeling thirsty, you can tap into that. If you are an active person, which I hope you are, and that doesn't mean that you have to be a super athlete, but just moving your body, having water with you when you're doing activity. And then also understanding, if you do have a health condition, whether it's a chronic illness or something else going on, check with your doctor or your health-care practitioner to find out if you might have water needs that are a little bit higher or lower than the general population. If so, what are some things that they might want you to do to maximize or minimize, as needed, your water intake as well.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Great tips. We talked about exercise, we talked about the plane. You'd already mentioned living in Arizona and being in the desert. What other things... Does elevation really matter? Or what other environmental or surrounding things do you need to be thinking about when you're thinking about staying hydrated?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Well, heat is a big one. If you're in a very hot climate, your water needs might be higher than if you are not. But again, that depends on how dry versus humid it is, how much your sweating throughout the day, what your activity levels are like. Those are all things to consider. Are you in an office building all day that has really dry heat going on, or are you outside working all day? Do you have a heavy workout load on the weekend, where you like to go hiking for hours on end? I might be talking about myself with that one. So, you need to make sure you're drinking plenty of water, not just when you're out there hiking, but on the other days around that as well. Those are all kinds of things that you need to think about just in your general day, or good things to think about in your general day and what might be affecting your overall water intake. That's not something you are doing, but something that's happening around you.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Well, that all sounds really awesome. Thanks for the great information. I think we now need to take a short break. And when we get back, we'll take some of our questions.

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Dr. Amanda Frick:

We are back and now it's time to answer some questions from the community. Our first question this week comes from a listener who asks, "I always feel thirsty no matter how much I drink. Could there be something wrong with my health?"

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

It's possible. I'll just start with that, it's possible. So, if you constantly feel thirsty no matter how much you drink, I think it's a good idea to check in with your health-care practitioner and see is there maybe something going on with that? I think there are some lifestyle things that you can think about, too. Are you maybe taking a medication that makes you feel thirsty or causes dry mouth? Are you eating something that causes a dry mouth feeling? Have you gotten your regular dental cleanings? Is there something going on in your dental health that might be causing you to feel thirsty? Those are things to think about too. But ultimately, if you do feel you are drinking the right amount of water for your body and your activity level, and you still feel thirsty no matter what, please check in with your health-care practitioner and see if maybe there might be something else going on.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Great. Is there a connection between hydration and dry skin? I mean, you mentioned it a little, but how or why does that work?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Super great question, which I love. So, your cells need water to be plump and healthy, and do all of the things that they are supposed to be doing throughout the day. And being well hydrated, drinking enough water is really going to help to make that happen. So, I have certainly seen cases of dry skin, or people who started drinking more water than they were in the past and suddenly they notice like, "Oh, I don't need to put lotion on as much", or, "My face looks so much more glowy than it normally does."

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Shocker. [Laughs]

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Right? Water is such an important part of a beauty routine. People love skincare products, and we are spending tons of money on skincare products, but are you drinking enough water before you even use those? Maybe you need to just go all the way back to the basics, make sure your water intake is really where it needs to be and then start your skincare products along with that. You might not need as many as you think. You might just need to drink some more water.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah, start from within. Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Absolutely.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Any favorites for things or products you would add to your water if your concerned with your skin?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Oh, gosh. I think some of the... Again, like we talked about, the coconut water or the pear water could be nice there. I like fruits here too. Again, pineapple is another hydrating fruit that has some great things in it. Bromelain is an enzyme in pineapple that actually helps your body digest pineapple, but it's beneficial to your body in general as well. So, things like inflammation within your cells, bromelain can benefit that. So, pineapple can be a nice one. This is where maybe a little bit of an electrolyte supplement might help too. So, just helping you stay hydrated, your skin looking healthy, and plump and gorgeous, always a nice thing.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

My shameless favorite is Thorne's Collagen Plus, because it's not only making me drink more water because it tastes so good, so I'm forcing another glass of water in, it has the ingredients to help boost hydration in the surface of the skin. So, double whammy for dry skin.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Yeah, that is a win-win there for sure. And it tastes good.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah, it tastes great.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

This customer asked, which, obviously, I'm not the customer, not really, but I can relate, "I hate plain water. What are some healthier alternatives to help me stay hydrated without adding too much sugar?" You talked about it a little bit, but any specific additions?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

So, I found some people who do not like plain water are totally fine with plain sparkling water, which kind of makes me laugh, but I also get it, because the bubbles add a different experience with it than just plain flat or still water does. A little bit of citrus in your water can be nice. So, a little lemon, a little lime, maybe a little squeeze of orange into your water is good. Really any kind of fruit also can be nice. If you like minty water, so a little cucumber, a little mint in your water, that can be really nice.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

You just stole mine. Mint is my favorite go-to.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Oh.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I give it a smack between your hands and shove it in my water bottle. It makes me so happy.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Ah. So good. And you know what surprisingly is good with mint as well is blueberry. Blueberry-mint water is really nice. Maybe a little squeeze of lemon, it's very nice.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

It looks pretty too.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

It does look really pretty. Also, those things are great in sparkling water, too. We talked about electrolyte supplements. There are also flavors for sparkling water or water that don't have a lot of artificial things in them that are really natural and those can be ways to add a little bit to that. Or, I even like a splash of juice. Maybe you really love apple juice, or you really love pineapple juice, or that orange-mango-pineapple blend, which is really, really nice, and that with sparkling water makes sort of a mocktail, or a punch, which is really enjoyable. Mocktails are a great one, too. I think there's really been a rise of interest in mocktails, and that's a great way to have some different flavors with your water. And then not having the alcohol, which can be drying.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So, the next question is, how is salt an electrolyte? I thought it dehydrated you.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

This is also a really interesting question. So, we talked a little bit about salt before. Most salt, especially if you're thinking about table salt, is going to be sodium and chloride together, sodium chloride, and those are both electrolytes. So, salt, we mentioned, again, “where sodium goes, water follows.” It's not necessarily that salt dehydrates you. It's that it's going to move water into different areas. So, you may have noticed if you've eaten a lot of really salty snacks that your fingers kind of swell up, or your hands might be puffy. If the concentration of salt is more than what can take water and salt into your cells, it'll hang out in what's called the interstitial fluid. That's the fluid that your cells are swimming in, for lack of a better term. So, salt will pull more water into that interstitial fluid, into that space between the cells and that can lead to some of that swelling and dehydrated feeling because the water is not where it needs to be, which is inside the cells that can use it.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Got it.

We had a community member that says, "I don't feel as thirsty during the winter as I do during the summer. Is it OK to drink less water?"

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

You might actually need to up your water intake in the winter a little bit. I know it sounds counterintuitive because it's cold outside, so you might not be feeling as thirsty. But in the winter, we're usually spending time inside buildings that have central heat. Central heat is very, very drying. So, it's going to be drying to your skin, it's going to be drying to your body in general, and that can increase your water needs a little bit. You also might be wearing a lot of layers, which can cause some sweating that you don't notice during the winter time, too. There's also, during the holidays especially, quite a bit of travel going on, quite a bit of things like holiday parties, where you might not be eating your normal diet or you might be drinking more things like alcoholic beverages that would increase your need for a little bit more water in that time. So, take stock of where you're at and what else is going on in your life, but consider that you probably need about the same amount of water all year round.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So, long story short, sorry, user, maybe it's not OK to drink less water.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Just drink water.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Maybe. Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Just drink water, it's good for you.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

And then we're going to let you shine here, Dr. Greer, because we're going to go science-y nerd, will you please speak about the kidney's role in hydration and how kidney function influences hydration?

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Yeah, I would love to talk about this. It's even funnier about kidney because my mom is a retired dialysis nurse. So, I have been hearing about kidneys, and fluid, and hydration in detail my entire life. But the kidneys play a really important role in hydration. Kidneys filter out toxins. They help to balance electrolytes and minerals in your body. They maintain a really important role in your cardiovascular function by making sure your heart has the nutrients it needs to beat properly, that your blood has the right amount of fluid in it.

So, kidneys, one of their main roles is really making sure that the amount of fluid in your blood is appropriate for your body. That's not too much or too little. So, they are working very hard every second of every day to keep that balance. Your body wants to be in homeostasis, or that balance. It doesn't want to be out of balance. So, your kidneys are working hard to make that happen. They are moving electrolytes across membranes and that allows water to move in and out of the blood, that allows the amount of certain nutrients to move in and out of the blood. And if your kidneys are not healthy, or you have other things going on, that can affect really your whole body because your kidneys play such an important role.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Thank you for that. Then I think that is all the questions we had for today. Thank you so much for your time. So, folks, that's all we have for this week, but we'd love to have you tune in next time for another great health and wellness conversation. Thanks for listening to the show. And thank you again to Dr. Greer for podcasting with me.

Dr. Jennifer Greer:

Thank you so much.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Thanks for listening to The Thorne Podcast. Make sure to never miss an episode by subscribing to the show on your podcast app of choice. If you've got a health or wellness question you'd like answered, simply follow our Instagram and shoot a message to @thornehealth. You can also learn more about the topics we discussed by visiting thorne.com and checking out the latest news videos and stories on Thorne's Take 5 Daily blog. Once again, thanks for tuning in and don't forget to join us next time for another episode of The Thorne Podcast.