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Metabolism is a complex process of turning the food you eat into energy for the body. Dr. Stephen Phipps joins podcast host Dr. Robert Rountree to answer all your questions about metabolism and explains the truth behind supplements, like berberine, for weight management.
During this episode you’ll learn about:
Resources to topics mentioned in this episode:
Products mentioned in this episode: Berberine, Curcumin Phytosome, Metabolic Health – with bergamot and turmeric, Gut Health Test, Quercetin Complex, Alpha-Lipoic Acid
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Subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode. You can also learn more about the topics in the episode by checking out the latest news, videos, and stories on Thorne’s Take 5 Daily blog.
During this episode you’ll learn about:
Resources to topics mentioned in this episode:
Products mentioned in this episode: Berberine, Curcumin Phytosome, Metabolic Health – with bergamot and turmeric, Gut Health Test, Quercetin Complex, Alpha-Lipoic Acid
Subscribe to More Content
Subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode. You can also learn more about the topics in the episode by checking out the latest news, videos, and stories on Thorne’s Take 5 Daily blog.
Dr. Robert Rountree - Intro
This is The Thorne Podcast, the show that navigates the complex world of wellness and explores the latest science behind diet supplements and lifestyle approaches to good health. I'm Dr. Robert Rountree, Chief Medical Advisor at Thorne and Functional Medicine Doctor. As a reminder, the recommendations made in this podcast are the recommendations of the individuals who expressed them and not the recommendations of Thorne. Statements in this podcast have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any products mentioned are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Hi everyone, and welcome to The Thorne Podcast. Joining me this week again is my colleague and returning guest of the pod, Dr. Stephen Phipps. Dr. Phipps is the Chief Innovation Officer at Thorne. He has an ND in Naturopathic Medicine and a Ph.D. in Pharmaceutical Science. So he's got a great background in the area that we're going to talk about. So, Stephen, how are you doing?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Doing great. Bob, as always, I enjoy being able to come talk with you and I'm excited about this topic that we're about to jump into. So, yeah, thank you for having me.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Great. My pleasure. So let's get into the main topic, which is metabolism. Very interesting word and the critical considerations when it comes to dietary supplements and how they influence metabolism. We're going to be delving into how our body’s metabolism works, what that means exactly, the factors that influence it, including the new category of weight loss drugs, which seems to be all over the news these days. And then we're going to contrast that to some of the common concerns that arise when supplements are introduced into the equation. Stephen, take it away. Tell us what metabolism means and what influences it.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
So if we're looking at it from the aspect of the human body as far as what people are thinking about and not necessarily what our liver does, really what we're trying to focus on with that is the way our body takes in energy from food, extracts some of that out, and then translates it into how it runs all the numerous cellular processes that it can. And then, you know what I think where people really get into this, is then what makes it work less efficiently? And when that happens, what do we see? Right? And so that's where I think the edge of that metabolism and that considerations on what we look through and what individuals are worried about is where it comes into weight or cholesterol or when they might hear things like metabolic syndrome. All of that is coming from that real key point of how there might be some disconnections between taking in that food, converting that food into energy, and running those cellular processes efficiently.
Dr. Robert Rountree
And where does metabolism occur in the body? Is it happening everywhere or is it primarily certain organs, or is it just in the body fat or…?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
The way I look at it is like on the cellular level, obviously everywhere, right? And the ones that are going to be your big areas that people think of as energy hogs are going to be your brain. Thankfully. And then your muscles, your muscles as far as like the need for consistent and refined energy, and then other areas that will do a lot, but then kind of store it. You mentioned adipose or fat tissues and then your liver does a lot to convert some of this stuff, try to understand what the body's doing and signaling it to do, and then shuttling different things around. And then obviously when that goes awry, you'll start to hear things like fatty liver for that very reason. Right?
Dr. Robert Rountree
So it's true that it's happening all over the body, but also there's specific parts of it that are growing in specific organs, like the liver, the fat tissue, the muscle, the brain, all have their own version of metabolism. Is that what you're saying?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly. And I think, you know, everybody can remember back to middle school, elementary school days when we talked about the cell and that there was those organelles. A lot of focus when we talk about it being everywhere is really in the mitochondria, which is, again, that energy powerhouse. You know, for those cells. And then you know obviously they are denser in other areas which we've talked about, right, with it being in the muscles and in the brain. But definitely they're found in every cell, that's a big piece of it.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Now the conventional perspective by nutritionists, etc., for a long time has been that it's all about calories in versus calories out. And that's the whole story. But why is it you can have two people on exactly the same diet, and one person gains weight, and one person has good energy and doesn't gain weight? Maybe you have a third person who's on the same diet and they lose weight. What the heck?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah, it's complicated, right? That's kind of where I think we are leading in some of the research and understanding over time. And there's areas then that comes into play. And one of them that I think we fully haven't started to understand, but are getting more and more into it is the microbiome, right? So one great answer is that those three people may have three completely different microbiomes.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Well, and what's different about their microbiome?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
You know, it's hard to say complicated-wise, but I mean, in general, one big bucket area would be that there are key differences in their polysaccharide or those complex carbohydrate metabolizing bugs. Some of them will make or eat that up, gobble it up, use it, and then make what's called short-chain fatty acids, which are really important for our GI tract and other bugs that live in the system. But some of them will make more small-chain saccharides that are useful for calories and energy. That all doesn't go into the bugs that will go into us too. And so what you can see is that there may be an inordinate amount of calorie freeing within that system that makes it so that we're seeing, you know, even with the calculations of take your calories and minus fiber and do all this stuff mathematically not lining up because the fiber is actually being modified and then reinserted back into the human system.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So a big part of it, the difference between people is what the bacteria, and who knows, maybe what the viruses or fungi in their gut, what those microbes are doing with the food that we're eating, like are they converting those foods into chemicals that have an impact on metabolism or do those microbes in some people act much more efficiently? Can they really suck out the, you know, the person that says, I eat one roll and I gain five pounds, like they've got really efficient bacteria in their gut that can suck out the energy from that food.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Right. And then, you know, anything. And then there's all those other downstream components, right? So, you know, just in general, this biotic gut can lead into the other part, too, right? Which is, you know, low and chronic amounts of inflammation. One of the reasons why I bring that up is if you look at certain types of tissue, there are ways that they all communicate together. There is a messenger system that we refer to as cytokines or chemokines that are typically more considered to be pro-inflammatory, but they generally create the message to fat to get storing or to change its size and shape. So, as you increase inflammation that may be coming from a dysbiotic gut, you may start to communicate over into your adipose tissue and further into that to create some cross communication that wasn't expected.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So, of course, the pressing question in all this is why are there so many overweight people and why is it so hard for a lot of those people to lose weight? And I can say that in clinical practice that weight loss is one of the most challenging issues there is in medicine. And I want to add to that question by saying what's going on with this new category of weight loss drugs that seem to be, quote, I'm getting a quote around this, they seem to be miracle drugs. So maybe that's the first thing I will ask you. Are these truly miracle drugs or what?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I mean, the way I've looked at it, because this is, I think, a topic near and dear to me just because when I was in private practice, I did a lot of weight loss stuff. There is no miracle. There is no miracle. I have yet to see it. I don't think this is going to be one just in general. And the reason why is that, much like any chronic condition where we do see, to me this being one of them, is that it's multifactorial, meaning there's more than one thing going on and we can focus in on things that will help in the acute scenario or the short term to kind of push on a piece of that puzzle. But as soon as you take it away, you'll typically see what we would consider to be rebound issues. Right? The weight comes back. This comes back. That comes back. To me that's pointing back to that complex molecular network that is causing some of these things to occur in individuals that has yet to be fully resolved.
Dr. Robert Rountree
It's not solving the problem.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
No. And that's why, but I think that's also why because it's so hard and people get frustrated and they're looking for those things that can help. But, you know, whether it's in the short term, the long term, both because I think, you know, you mentioned the old thing of calories in and calories out, like that's what people hear when it comes to metabolism. Right? Still, and if it was that easy, you know, and to your point, there may be a small group that that still is true for but they don't have all those multifactorial issues going on. Right? There has to be a different way to kind of think about this. And I think that when we do think about these things as multifactorial and you know, more chronic of an issue, then the way that we consider it as far as how we think about helping changes, right, because you can't just have a miracle that way or expect it to work.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So speaking of that, that really begs the question. Are there certain dietary supplements that could be nature's Ozempic?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
You know, I knew that was going to come.
Dr. Robert Rountree
You know, it was coming.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I do. I do. So, I mean, if you look at just on the surface, right, you look at the molecule of Ozempic, which is a semaglutide, it is a what we would call a GLP one mimetic, so it is really good at systemically being able to create biochemical changes through that receptor very strongly. If you look at some of the things that we would quote-unquote say, “it may be nature's version,” nature doesn't have a lot of things. When we look at the natural product space in the general food use or dietary supplement use that are that strong and selective, and what I'm trying to do with that is at least bridge so you can modify intestinal GLP, one with a couple of different things out there. Right? I know berberine has gotten to be the king of that discussion and that consideration, but I think really when we start to look at that, I think it's better to be honest with the expectations and also to really gauge into the ways that we can be transparent and safe and really creating more effective routes to those health modules that we're looking for from it, which does not take away from what berberine could do. It's because it's multifactorial. It's actually really interesting, right? I know that you probably use this in practice as well, but if you think about all the things that berberine can do, it also goes into another key area that ties in the metabolism, which is AMPK, right? So that protein kinase can also do wonders at getting energy expenditure back online through those little powerhouses that we talked about. Right? So, it walks through a very specific path for mitochondrial biogenesis and energy expenditure that is quite compelling to use as a safe way to modify one's metabolism. Now, will it cause the same rapid changes into the system that we would expect to see with very selective injectable drug? No, I don't think so.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So is it fair to say that drugs tend to be powerful, targeted, focused, and sometimes highly effective in the short-term, but may be problematic in the long run because you wouldn't necessarily want to take them indefinitely. They could be expensive, they could have untoward side effects, and that could be contrasted to an herb like berberine. And I've got to say, I have I have taken berberine myself for at least 15 years.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah.
Dr. Robert Rountree
And without any downside.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
And I think that's the way to look at it. When you're looking at drug development in general, I think what we typically see is you're looking for something that is very selective in the past, and things are always changing because drug development is quite far behind the research, because they have to be to do all the work. So, let's go back. We look at that right now. The main things we see, it's very selective, meaning it's got one target, very efficacious, meaning it's a very small amount to make that change and that target tends to be one that is very, I would say high up in the biochemistry pathway that we're looking. So, to your point, with all of that in mind, the short-term changes will be stronger because you've kind of really hit it with a hammer over time, like it will start to really show where those changes can be a problem, right? So, whether it's neurological in nature or whether it's, you know, potentially psychiatric in nature, the metabolism and energetics of our body, again, you have to remember a time back into very big areas and one of them is the brain, right? So, modifications in that system could over time create some issues and even more longitudinally, have more effects that we're just not aware of because we haven't hit that system that hard for that long. So again, that's the last phase of phase four of the drug development pipeline, to watch it in the field. So, you've got, you know, a different cohort. When they started using that injectable, it was done with diabetes. Right? And a very specific mind of wanting to do it. Now, spreading it out into a population that's far greater and has other components to it that maybe not have been expected to use it. Like, that's where we start to see hitting that hammer could create a bigger problem in a larger population.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So what would be your alternative if, say, somebody came to see you as a patient and said, hey, I'm a bit overweight, you know, I have a persistently high body mass index. And so, let's say I want you to prescribe one of those drugs, I want you to prescribe Wegovy or Munjaro. What would you say to that person that would represent an alternative approach so you don't have to go into great detail about every single thing you'd use? But how would you address the issue?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
So that’s where I’d kind of go back to the multifactorial piece, right? And say, okay, you know, let's look at this a little bit and say, why don't we start with a few things before we consider the hammer? And so, the way I would look at that would be let's go ahead and look at what could be causing problems in your metabolic network. Right? So, you know, we may consider looking at how much NAD may be present in the system or how much is going to be that kind of currency of energy. You know, we can look at the microbiome and get a sense of, are we seeing some of this stuff? We could look at the inflammatory cascades and even do some other components within things like metabolomics, or we can really get a sense of what is your unique chemistry you're trying to tell me, and how do we help you understand that, right? And so from there we can look and focus in on them how to optimize the metabolic process through some of these things like berberine, or some other ones that are interesting are going to be anti-inflammatory. Things like Meriva, which is a curcumin phytosome, does show benefit on a very specific type of fat, which is that we call trunchial body fat, which typically is more inflammatory in nature. Same thing could be said for another ingredient known as bergamot. So those are the things that we would look at how to tailor into redefining and remodifying the metabolic efficiency. Right? So, give something that will help with mitochondrial biogenesis, give rise to an understanding of what the diet may be looking like, with the microbiome in mind. And you've described the characteristics and the ways that we've been seeing abnormal metabolism or inflammation and modify those things and start to really layer that approach in. And then from there to look at just diet, too. I mean, that's the hard part we all get. We all get busy, we all get stressed, we all have not a lot of time and an infinite amount of things to do. And so stress, stress management, diet, dietary style, they also can be considered. But I don't think you just start saying, oh, we’ve got to reduce your calories or we're going to take this alkaline. We're going to do this. We start to see why they're seeing what they're seeing, right?
Dr. Robert Rountree
So you're really going in deep is what I'm hearing you say. You you're saying, hey, we've got to characterize your metabolism as an individual. And there's a lot of things that we can learn, not just whether your cholesterol is high or whether you have pre-diabetes, but we can really go deep into looking at all the chemicals in your body and looking at your gut microbiome, which it sounds like you might consider doing a gut microbiome test in somebody like that.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yes, I think so. And especially you can start to then tie that into what might be seen in some of these other blood types of metabolites and the like. But the way I look at it, is you've got an individual who most likely has been dealing with this for some time, right? And as in with that kind of chronic component, again, you kind of got to understand that there's going to be things that have triggered this in their story. Right? And with those triggers, like what may be something that has come out right, and so you may find that there's stress related issues that come through, there's gut related issues that come through, or there could be environmental issues that have come through. Right? So all these things will give rise to the conflict, you know, and I think also show the complexity of the human metabolism, and the human metabolic process is that there's more than one thing that's going on there. And if your energetic output is going to be dismantled in your mitochondrial density or how many of those little powerhouses are reduced, then your body's not going to be efficient at making energy from your food. So your food is going to go into storage, so your storage is going to be your fat because glycogen is very transient. So again, like all of these things start to pile on. So you've got to kind of unravel it, or kind of like the onion of a problem, that it is to really get into how to best maneuver through it.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Well, you're giving us a lot of insight here, and I think you're making it very clear that this is not a simple matter of just taking one of these new prescription drugs and bingo, you solved the problem. So, I would just tell listeners who have issues with metabolism to keep that in mind. I mean, make sure you work with somebody who knows how to take that kind of deep dive. Because if this is a persistent problem, not just a recent problem, it's going to take some work.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly. And then having somebody there to be in there with you along the way, like you said, like a provider that will dive in with you is, I think, a really key area of the help.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Great. All right. Well, we'll be right back to answer some questions from our listeners after a short break.
Dr. Robert Rountree – Ad Read
Hello, this is Dr. Robert Rountree, your host of The Thorne Podcast. Do you have a health topic you want covered or a question you want answered on the show? Then reach out to us on Instagram and we'll try and cover it in a future episode. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the show through your favorite podcast app. Subscribing to the show enables you to stay up to date on the latest in medical research. Follow the next big ideas and health and technology, and get insights from experts on common health concerns. Subscribe today through the podcast app of your choice. Thanks for listening. Now let's get back to the show.
Dr. Robert Rountree
And we're back. So now it's time to answer some questions from the community. Our first question this week comes from a listener who asked: are there any concerns or considerations about taking certain metabolism-related supplements over an extended period?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I think that's a really good question. And I think one that's pretty pertinent right now as people are looking more and more to things that are helpful here. I think for the most part, what we've talked about, and what we're using have been safe, and shown to be safe for use over an extended period. One of the things, though, that I'll mention within this, however, is there may be obviously products that wouldn't be and those are going to be specifically around things that would be known as like a stimulant or things that increase your heart rate. They're going to increase a lot of different things, but, you know, decrease your overall want to eat. And so, you know, we've seen those through a few different lines that have been popular over time but never utilized those.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Thorne doesn't sell any of them?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
No, we’ve never never used those, and we won't use those because they can be very detrimental to people for sure.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So that would be something like ephedra, I think is one that was a very popular thing. It's a stimulant, basically. It's a kind of speed.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah. So kind of working through that fight-or-flight pathway and turning it way up. So that's one of them. Octopine is another one. And these are all kind of around that area of trying to really stimulate that, that fight-or-flight response for a long period of time.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Whereas, things like green tea you could take, yeah, and that's not a problem?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I mean, if you drink that every day you’d pretty much be a pretty healthy person, right? If we look at the data and the blue food group, there are blue food regions for longevity. You can look at turmeric, you can look at berberine compounds. If you look at even some of the flavonoids that are all in there and they typically are very, very safe and have, you know, like you pointed out earlier in this discussion, things that you've used for years. Right? So, I mean, that's another really good way of thinking about it.
Dr. Robert Rountree
I've heard about this up and coming compound called caffeine. I wonder if you have any comments about that.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
(Laughs)
Dr. Robert Rountree
Long-term use… safety…
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I think, if you think about it, like, you know, if you looked at it in the amount of tea and the amount in a coffee, and it's at one or two a day, I think, you know, you're looking at something a lot different from maybe what people have been doing more and more, which is really elevating the caffeine content.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Energy drinks?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly. Energy drinks, you know, pushing the limits of extending caffeine throughout the day into the gram level, depending on how people use it. Like those are the areas that even something that has been prolific in our diet, like caffeine, starts to really have a question, right?
Dr. Robert Rountree
Why do metabolism supplements vary from person to person? I can think of a number of products that people lose weight with, but then you see in the small print on the label, quote, “results not typical.” I don't think Thorne says that on any of their labels. So?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Correct.
Dr. Robert Rountree
What do you think about that?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I think, you know, mainly because we're trying to make sure that we really get into supporting healthy metabolism and metabolic function, and cellular energy, those are the things that I think the literature shows us, and those are the things that we really focus on. And I think the reason why, to even some of the ways we earlier discussed this, the metabolism supplements vary from person to person is that there's a lot going on. Right? So, if you look at certain botanicals that may be utilized, there is a good point. Like some people will be really good at getting those into their body and their microbiome may be doing that with them and for them, but others may not. And so, if you're not using something to kind of help the body get more of that botanical in, like a phytosome or something of that nature, then you're going to see variability there just because it's inherent. We could see that for a lot of different stuff, actually. But I think that's just one good example of genetics of an individual for certain vitamins, maybe another one, right? So, if we look at cellular metabolism and folate B12, like depending on how well you can take that and methylated, you may find that there's issues, right? So looking at tissue-ready forms may help level the playing field, even though some person-to-person variability will still be on line.
Dr. Robert Rountree
We were joking about caffeine, but I think that the example of caffeine is really a good one, because it seems like the population is almost evenly divided between people who don't tolerate caffeine hardly at all, and people who do really well on caffeine, there are people who do really well on it, it actually does improve their metabolism, it's beneficial. It's not just that it's a stimulant, it improves their metabolism.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly. And I think you pointed out a great one because in there, too, is the genetics of caffeine. Right? So that CYP metabolism point where individuals that are very sensitive to caffeine, actually some of them will have an increased cardiovascular risk, right? So they're putting their long-term health at risk by trying to push on that because their body is just not made to assimilate that well.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So the next person asks what are the most effective supplements for turbocharging my metabolism? So I guess that would be beyond caffeine. And then we know when you're talking about that there's a second part of that question. Can you overdose on metabolism boosters?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Right, and I think you know that to answer the second part first is the easiest. There it again goes back to, it depends. So, if we look back at those elevated materials that are going to be speed, yeah, I mean, if you took too many of those at once, you could seriously end up hurting yourself. Yeah.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Well, ephedra a really good example.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Right, I mean, you know, and I think that's where you start to get into that class and question of like something of an abuse potential, right? Like they were abused for their ability to perform, to not worry about food, to not eat like that, you know, and to be lean. So if you push that into the performance realm, that's when you really start to push the boundaries even more, right? And so you can definitely get seriously hurt, and weight loss is the same. But for outside that I do, I like the wan that obviously berberine works. I do think that because you have talked about it earlier, that kind of AMPK type of action. So working at really helping increase the efficiencies of energy expenditure or how you're burning energy through your mitochondria is really unique, and you get that little bit of the intestinal kind of GLP boost on top of it. But I think really focusing in on what that mitochondrial aspect is, is even stronger. To me, like that's really a standard, looking at that whole pathway or that molecular network with that. Then I would bring in nicotinamide riboside as a potential candidate or contender with that, because then it's going to be the downstream kind of reactions that come through. Once berberine activates that whole area, we'll all be NAD-dependent or, you know, and so you'll need that NAD to kind of bolster it. And then because as we age and as we lose some of this metabolic efficiency, which is kind of highlighted in an interesting word called pseudohypoxia, we aren't efficient enough at utilizing or creating our fuels. So that'll really help charge up. Then two, in somatic kind of components that are all downstream of how berberine work, which will be at your sirtuins, and then a really special little guy called PGC one. And one-alpha is kind of what everyone looks at and that'll kind of pair up with a few other epigenes for metabolism that really help kind of get things moving again as the mitochondria increase their number. So not only is it number that you're increasing with all of this combined together, but the efficiencies of burning that energy.
Dr. Robert Rountree
One thing that I might throw in, is that a lot of people don't think of for metabolism is quercetin
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah.
Dr. Robert Rountree
You know, people think of quercetin for allergy.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly.
Dr. Robert Rountree
But there's actually some pretty good studies showing that quercetin can enhance mitochondrial biogenesis, which means it enhances the ability to make more mitochondria, which makes you more efficient in your metabolism. So that's one that I would certainly throw in the mix.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I love that one.
Dr. Robert Rountree
I also wonder what you think about alpha lipoic acid, which I think a lot of people don't consider.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah, no, I think, and those are all, you know, like I obviously I love the quercetin, that's a great add. And one of the things that's really interesting to your point is that utilization, and then for alpha lipoic acid I do also think that people kind of label it as a specific for supporting healthy neuro-function or nerve function, but it's doing it by really making sure that some of the energetics and some of the ways that works stay online. So, I do think there's a lot that can be said there, especially because the metabolism of fats ultimately is a big driver in how this mitochondrial efficiency can work in our favor in that beta-oxidation type of response.
Dr. Robert Rountree
It really comes down to efficient fat burning, doesn't it? I mean, isn't that essentially the issue? People who efficiently burn fat are able to make more ATP, they have more energy, they are physically more fit, and they don't have as much body fat.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Right. And I think trying to get that energetic balance is where everything kind of goes sideways. But to your point, if that stays online, and all of the genetics and all the other factors we talked about, whether it's inflammation or deficiencies in glucose metabolism, that leads to more storage of fats, like all those things start to pile up. And that's kind of the collapse of that great oxidation pillar or that fat burning pillar. To your point, the real key piece of that.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So here's a really interesting kind of umbrella question. Are we too concerned with weight and metabolism or are we not concerned enough?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
You know, and I think it's a really, really good question and really one that we see, you know, as an argument back and forth into the public domain and how we think of this. Like always, there's like a mix of how we want to think of this. And that's why I really try to focus in on, are we too concerned with metabolism? And to me, that's the big piece of that, the metabolism, our metabolism, our resting metabolism. If we see it go offline regardless of we put the weight discussion and the things that can arise from that topic, we ultimately see issues within our system that leads to chronic decline. So I think what we should be looking at are the ways that we should be thinking about this. Instead are how do we tease that out, right, and say, this is kind of where we think because as we get into the weight ultimately what comes on is the arguments on BMI and whether or not that's something that is accurate and putting us into buckets and how different body shapes or body types may be like all this different stuff, but ultimately the metabolism and underneath that biochemistry pathway is kind of the thing that I think we could talk about because it leads to the things we spoke of the optimal health, which would be how is your microbiome working, how are these other processes in line? You know, we can see dysbiosis in the framework of a lot of these metabolic disorders and how they come on rise, right? So the newest one being PCOS, which doesn't have to have a weight component for diagnosis but has a core metabolic deficiency within its constructs, right?
Dr. Robert Rountree
So what you're really saying is weight is not the problem per se, weight is a result of a problem, can be the result of a problem? Somebody can be a bigger person, a heavier person, and be perfectly healthy, but it's the metabolism we need know about, which has really been the subject of this whole discussion. And you've given us some examples of how we can take a deep dive into metabolism by looking at the gut microbiome, you know, by looking at biomarkers. Probably biological age is part of that. So that's what we really need to be focusing on, does a person have a healthy metabolism?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Correct, I think that's a great way of putting it, Bob.
Dr. Robert Rountree
This has been a fascinating discussion. I hope that we've given our listeners some things to think about, shall I say, food for thought. So, folks, that's all the time we have for this week. Dr. Stephen Phipps, thanks again so much for coming back on the podcast and sharing your insights with us. If people want to keep up with what you're doing, the latest developments at Thorne, where should they go?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
The biggest way I like to track what we got is our website. You'll see new products being launched, new types of content that discuss these issues, as well with the Take 5 Daily, and then things like LinkedIn, where you can find myself and our Thorne HealthTech groups.
Dr. Robert Rountree
As always, thanks everyone for listening and until next time.
Dr. Robert Rountree - Outro
Thanks for listening to The Thorne Podcast. Make sure to never miss an episode by subscribing to the show on your podcast app of choice. If you've got a health or wellness question you'd like answered, simply follow our Instagram and shoot a message to @ThorneHealth. You can also learn more about the topics we discussed by visiting Thorne.com and checking out the latest news videos and stories on Thorne’s Take 5 Daily blog. Once again, thanks for tuning in and don't forget to join us next time for another episode of The Thorne Podcast.
Dr. Robert Rountree - Intro
This is The Thorne Podcast, the show that navigates the complex world of wellness and explores the latest science behind diet supplements and lifestyle approaches to good health. I'm Dr. Robert Rountree, Chief Medical Advisor at Thorne and Functional Medicine Doctor. As a reminder, the recommendations made in this podcast are the recommendations of the individuals who expressed them and not the recommendations of Thorne. Statements in this podcast have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any products mentioned are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Hi everyone, and welcome to The Thorne Podcast. Joining me this week again is my colleague and returning guest of the pod, Dr. Stephen Phipps. Dr. Phipps is the Chief Innovation Officer at Thorne. He has an ND in Naturopathic Medicine and a Ph.D. in Pharmaceutical Science. So he's got a great background in the area that we're going to talk about. So, Stephen, how are you doing?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Doing great. Bob, as always, I enjoy being able to come talk with you and I'm excited about this topic that we're about to jump into. So, yeah, thank you for having me.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Great. My pleasure. So let's get into the main topic, which is metabolism. Very interesting word and the critical considerations when it comes to dietary supplements and how they influence metabolism. We're going to be delving into how our body’s metabolism works, what that means exactly, the factors that influence it, including the new category of weight loss drugs, which seems to be all over the news these days. And then we're going to contrast that to some of the common concerns that arise when supplements are introduced into the equation. Stephen, take it away. Tell us what metabolism means and what influences it.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
So if we're looking at it from the aspect of the human body as far as what people are thinking about and not necessarily what our liver does, really what we're trying to focus on with that is the way our body takes in energy from food, extracts some of that out, and then translates it into how it runs all the numerous cellular processes that it can. And then, you know what I think where people really get into this, is then what makes it work less efficiently? And when that happens, what do we see? Right? And so that's where I think the edge of that metabolism and that considerations on what we look through and what individuals are worried about is where it comes into weight or cholesterol or when they might hear things like metabolic syndrome. All of that is coming from that real key point of how there might be some disconnections between taking in that food, converting that food into energy, and running those cellular processes efficiently.
Dr. Robert Rountree
And where does metabolism occur in the body? Is it happening everywhere or is it primarily certain organs, or is it just in the body fat or…?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
The way I look at it is like on the cellular level, obviously everywhere, right? And the ones that are going to be your big areas that people think of as energy hogs are going to be your brain. Thankfully. And then your muscles, your muscles as far as like the need for consistent and refined energy, and then other areas that will do a lot, but then kind of store it. You mentioned adipose or fat tissues and then your liver does a lot to convert some of this stuff, try to understand what the body's doing and signaling it to do, and then shuttling different things around. And then obviously when that goes awry, you'll start to hear things like fatty liver for that very reason. Right?
Dr. Robert Rountree
So it's true that it's happening all over the body, but also there's specific parts of it that are growing in specific organs, like the liver, the fat tissue, the muscle, the brain, all have their own version of metabolism. Is that what you're saying?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly. And I think, you know, everybody can remember back to middle school, elementary school days when we talked about the cell and that there was those organelles. A lot of focus when we talk about it being everywhere is really in the mitochondria, which is, again, that energy powerhouse. You know, for those cells. And then you know obviously they are denser in other areas which we've talked about, right, with it being in the muscles and in the brain. But definitely they're found in every cell, that's a big piece of it.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Now the conventional perspective by nutritionists, etc., for a long time has been that it's all about calories in versus calories out. And that's the whole story. But why is it you can have two people on exactly the same diet, and one person gains weight, and one person has good energy and doesn't gain weight? Maybe you have a third person who's on the same diet and they lose weight. What the heck?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah, it's complicated, right? That's kind of where I think we are leading in some of the research and understanding over time. And there's areas then that comes into play. And one of them that I think we fully haven't started to understand, but are getting more and more into it is the microbiome, right? So one great answer is that those three people may have three completely different microbiomes.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Well, and what's different about their microbiome?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
You know, it's hard to say complicated-wise, but I mean, in general, one big bucket area would be that there are key differences in their polysaccharide or those complex carbohydrate metabolizing bugs. Some of them will make or eat that up, gobble it up, use it, and then make what's called short-chain fatty acids, which are really important for our GI tract and other bugs that live in the system. But some of them will make more small-chain saccharides that are useful for calories and energy. That all doesn't go into the bugs that will go into us too. And so what you can see is that there may be an inordinate amount of calorie freeing within that system that makes it so that we're seeing, you know, even with the calculations of take your calories and minus fiber and do all this stuff mathematically not lining up because the fiber is actually being modified and then reinserted back into the human system.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So a big part of it, the difference between people is what the bacteria, and who knows, maybe what the viruses or fungi in their gut, what those microbes are doing with the food that we're eating, like are they converting those foods into chemicals that have an impact on metabolism or do those microbes in some people act much more efficiently? Can they really suck out the, you know, the person that says, I eat one roll and I gain five pounds, like they've got really efficient bacteria in their gut that can suck out the energy from that food.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Right. And then, you know, anything. And then there's all those other downstream components, right? So, you know, just in general, this biotic gut can lead into the other part, too, right? Which is, you know, low and chronic amounts of inflammation. One of the reasons why I bring that up is if you look at certain types of tissue, there are ways that they all communicate together. There is a messenger system that we refer to as cytokines or chemokines that are typically more considered to be pro-inflammatory, but they generally create the message to fat to get storing or to change its size and shape. So, as you increase inflammation that may be coming from a dysbiotic gut, you may start to communicate over into your adipose tissue and further into that to create some cross communication that wasn't expected.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So, of course, the pressing question in all this is why are there so many overweight people and why is it so hard for a lot of those people to lose weight? And I can say that in clinical practice that weight loss is one of the most challenging issues there is in medicine. And I want to add to that question by saying what's going on with this new category of weight loss drugs that seem to be, quote, I'm getting a quote around this, they seem to be miracle drugs. So maybe that's the first thing I will ask you. Are these truly miracle drugs or what?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I mean, the way I've looked at it, because this is, I think, a topic near and dear to me just because when I was in private practice, I did a lot of weight loss stuff. There is no miracle. There is no miracle. I have yet to see it. I don't think this is going to be one just in general. And the reason why is that, much like any chronic condition where we do see, to me this being one of them, is that it's multifactorial, meaning there's more than one thing going on and we can focus in on things that will help in the acute scenario or the short term to kind of push on a piece of that puzzle. But as soon as you take it away, you'll typically see what we would consider to be rebound issues. Right? The weight comes back. This comes back. That comes back. To me that's pointing back to that complex molecular network that is causing some of these things to occur in individuals that has yet to be fully resolved.
Dr. Robert Rountree
It's not solving the problem.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
No. And that's why, but I think that's also why because it's so hard and people get frustrated and they're looking for those things that can help. But, you know, whether it's in the short term, the long term, both because I think, you know, you mentioned the old thing of calories in and calories out, like that's what people hear when it comes to metabolism. Right? Still, and if it was that easy, you know, and to your point, there may be a small group that that still is true for but they don't have all those multifactorial issues going on. Right? There has to be a different way to kind of think about this. And I think that when we do think about these things as multifactorial and you know, more chronic of an issue, then the way that we consider it as far as how we think about helping changes, right, because you can't just have a miracle that way or expect it to work.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So speaking of that, that really begs the question. Are there certain dietary supplements that could be nature's Ozempic?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
You know, I knew that was going to come.
Dr. Robert Rountree
You know, it was coming.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I do. I do. So, I mean, if you look at just on the surface, right, you look at the molecule of Ozempic, which is a semaglutide, it is a what we would call a GLP one mimetic, so it is really good at systemically being able to create biochemical changes through that receptor very strongly. If you look at some of the things that we would quote-unquote say, “it may be nature's version,” nature doesn't have a lot of things. When we look at the natural product space in the general food use or dietary supplement use that are that strong and selective, and what I'm trying to do with that is at least bridge so you can modify intestinal GLP, one with a couple of different things out there. Right? I know berberine has gotten to be the king of that discussion and that consideration, but I think really when we start to look at that, I think it's better to be honest with the expectations and also to really gauge into the ways that we can be transparent and safe and really creating more effective routes to those health modules that we're looking for from it, which does not take away from what berberine could do. It's because it's multifactorial. It's actually really interesting, right? I know that you probably use this in practice as well, but if you think about all the things that berberine can do, it also goes into another key area that ties in the metabolism, which is AMPK, right? So that protein kinase can also do wonders at getting energy expenditure back online through those little powerhouses that we talked about. Right? So, it walks through a very specific path for mitochondrial biogenesis and energy expenditure that is quite compelling to use as a safe way to modify one's metabolism. Now, will it cause the same rapid changes into the system that we would expect to see with very selective injectable drug? No, I don't think so.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So is it fair to say that drugs tend to be powerful, targeted, focused, and sometimes highly effective in the short-term, but may be problematic in the long run because you wouldn't necessarily want to take them indefinitely. They could be expensive, they could have untoward side effects, and that could be contrasted to an herb like berberine. And I've got to say, I have I have taken berberine myself for at least 15 years.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah.
Dr. Robert Rountree
And without any downside.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
And I think that's the way to look at it. When you're looking at drug development in general, I think what we typically see is you're looking for something that is very selective in the past, and things are always changing because drug development is quite far behind the research, because they have to be to do all the work. So, let's go back. We look at that right now. The main things we see, it's very selective, meaning it's got one target, very efficacious, meaning it's a very small amount to make that change and that target tends to be one that is very, I would say high up in the biochemistry pathway that we're looking. So, to your point, with all of that in mind, the short-term changes will be stronger because you've kind of really hit it with a hammer over time, like it will start to really show where those changes can be a problem, right? So, whether it's neurological in nature or whether it's, you know, potentially psychiatric in nature, the metabolism and energetics of our body, again, you have to remember a time back into very big areas and one of them is the brain, right? So, modifications in that system could over time create some issues and even more longitudinally, have more effects that we're just not aware of because we haven't hit that system that hard for that long. So again, that's the last phase of phase four of the drug development pipeline, to watch it in the field. So, you've got, you know, a different cohort. When they started using that injectable, it was done with diabetes. Right? And a very specific mind of wanting to do it. Now, spreading it out into a population that's far greater and has other components to it that maybe not have been expected to use it. Like, that's where we start to see hitting that hammer could create a bigger problem in a larger population.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So what would be your alternative if, say, somebody came to see you as a patient and said, hey, I'm a bit overweight, you know, I have a persistently high body mass index. And so, let's say I want you to prescribe one of those drugs, I want you to prescribe Wegovy or Munjaro. What would you say to that person that would represent an alternative approach so you don't have to go into great detail about every single thing you'd use? But how would you address the issue?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
So that’s where I’d kind of go back to the multifactorial piece, right? And say, okay, you know, let's look at this a little bit and say, why don't we start with a few things before we consider the hammer? And so, the way I would look at that would be let's go ahead and look at what could be causing problems in your metabolic network. Right? So, you know, we may consider looking at how much NAD may be present in the system or how much is going to be that kind of currency of energy. You know, we can look at the microbiome and get a sense of, are we seeing some of this stuff? We could look at the inflammatory cascades and even do some other components within things like metabolomics, or we can really get a sense of what is your unique chemistry you're trying to tell me, and how do we help you understand that, right? And so from there we can look and focus in on them how to optimize the metabolic process through some of these things like berberine, or some other ones that are interesting are going to be anti-inflammatory. Things like Meriva, which is a curcumin phytosome, does show benefit on a very specific type of fat, which is that we call trunchial body fat, which typically is more inflammatory in nature. Same thing could be said for another ingredient known as bergamot. So those are the things that we would look at how to tailor into redefining and remodifying the metabolic efficiency. Right? So, give something that will help with mitochondrial biogenesis, give rise to an understanding of what the diet may be looking like, with the microbiome in mind. And you've described the characteristics and the ways that we've been seeing abnormal metabolism or inflammation and modify those things and start to really layer that approach in. And then from there to look at just diet, too. I mean, that's the hard part we all get. We all get busy, we all get stressed, we all have not a lot of time and an infinite amount of things to do. And so stress, stress management, diet, dietary style, they also can be considered. But I don't think you just start saying, oh, we’ve got to reduce your calories or we're going to take this alkaline. We're going to do this. We start to see why they're seeing what they're seeing, right?
Dr. Robert Rountree
So you're really going in deep is what I'm hearing you say. You you're saying, hey, we've got to characterize your metabolism as an individual. And there's a lot of things that we can learn, not just whether your cholesterol is high or whether you have pre-diabetes, but we can really go deep into looking at all the chemicals in your body and looking at your gut microbiome, which it sounds like you might consider doing a gut microbiome test in somebody like that.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yes, I think so. And especially you can start to then tie that into what might be seen in some of these other blood types of metabolites and the like. But the way I look at it, is you've got an individual who most likely has been dealing with this for some time, right? And as in with that kind of chronic component, again, you kind of got to understand that there's going to be things that have triggered this in their story. Right? And with those triggers, like what may be something that has come out right, and so you may find that there's stress related issues that come through, there's gut related issues that come through, or there could be environmental issues that have come through. Right? So all these things will give rise to the conflict, you know, and I think also show the complexity of the human metabolism, and the human metabolic process is that there's more than one thing that's going on there. And if your energetic output is going to be dismantled in your mitochondrial density or how many of those little powerhouses are reduced, then your body's not going to be efficient at making energy from your food. So your food is going to go into storage, so your storage is going to be your fat because glycogen is very transient. So again, like all of these things start to pile on. So you've got to kind of unravel it, or kind of like the onion of a problem, that it is to really get into how to best maneuver through it.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Well, you're giving us a lot of insight here, and I think you're making it very clear that this is not a simple matter of just taking one of these new prescription drugs and bingo, you solved the problem. So, I would just tell listeners who have issues with metabolism to keep that in mind. I mean, make sure you work with somebody who knows how to take that kind of deep dive. Because if this is a persistent problem, not just a recent problem, it's going to take some work.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly. And then having somebody there to be in there with you along the way, like you said, like a provider that will dive in with you is, I think, a really key area of the help.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Great. All right. Well, we'll be right back to answer some questions from our listeners after a short break.
Dr. Robert Rountree – Ad Read
Hello, this is Dr. Robert Rountree, your host of The Thorne Podcast. Do you have a health topic you want covered or a question you want answered on the show? Then reach out to us on Instagram and we'll try and cover it in a future episode. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the show through your favorite podcast app. Subscribing to the show enables you to stay up to date on the latest in medical research. Follow the next big ideas and health and technology, and get insights from experts on common health concerns. Subscribe today through the podcast app of your choice. Thanks for listening. Now let's get back to the show.
Dr. Robert Rountree
And we're back. So now it's time to answer some questions from the community. Our first question this week comes from a listener who asked: are there any concerns or considerations about taking certain metabolism-related supplements over an extended period?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I think that's a really good question. And I think one that's pretty pertinent right now as people are looking more and more to things that are helpful here. I think for the most part, what we've talked about, and what we're using have been safe, and shown to be safe for use over an extended period. One of the things, though, that I'll mention within this, however, is there may be obviously products that wouldn't be and those are going to be specifically around things that would be known as like a stimulant or things that increase your heart rate. They're going to increase a lot of different things, but, you know, decrease your overall want to eat. And so, you know, we've seen those through a few different lines that have been popular over time but never utilized those.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Thorne doesn't sell any of them?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
No, we’ve never never used those, and we won't use those because they can be very detrimental to people for sure.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So that would be something like ephedra, I think is one that was a very popular thing. It's a stimulant, basically. It's a kind of speed.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah. So kind of working through that fight-or-flight pathway and turning it way up. So that's one of them. Octopine is another one. And these are all kind of around that area of trying to really stimulate that, that fight-or-flight response for a long period of time.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Whereas, things like green tea you could take, yeah, and that's not a problem?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I mean, if you drink that every day you’d pretty much be a pretty healthy person, right? If we look at the data and the blue food group, there are blue food regions for longevity. You can look at turmeric, you can look at berberine compounds. If you look at even some of the flavonoids that are all in there and they typically are very, very safe and have, you know, like you pointed out earlier in this discussion, things that you've used for years. Right? So, I mean, that's another really good way of thinking about it.
Dr. Robert Rountree
I've heard about this up and coming compound called caffeine. I wonder if you have any comments about that.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
(Laughs)
Dr. Robert Rountree
Long-term use… safety…
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I think, if you think about it, like, you know, if you looked at it in the amount of tea and the amount in a coffee, and it's at one or two a day, I think, you know, you're looking at something a lot different from maybe what people have been doing more and more, which is really elevating the caffeine content.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Energy drinks?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly. Energy drinks, you know, pushing the limits of extending caffeine throughout the day into the gram level, depending on how people use it. Like those are the areas that even something that has been prolific in our diet, like caffeine, starts to really have a question, right?
Dr. Robert Rountree
Why do metabolism supplements vary from person to person? I can think of a number of products that people lose weight with, but then you see in the small print on the label, quote, “results not typical.” I don't think Thorne says that on any of their labels. So?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Correct.
Dr. Robert Rountree
What do you think about that?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I think, you know, mainly because we're trying to make sure that we really get into supporting healthy metabolism and metabolic function, and cellular energy, those are the things that I think the literature shows us, and those are the things that we really focus on. And I think the reason why, to even some of the ways we earlier discussed this, the metabolism supplements vary from person to person is that there's a lot going on. Right? So, if you look at certain botanicals that may be utilized, there is a good point. Like some people will be really good at getting those into their body and their microbiome may be doing that with them and for them, but others may not. And so, if you're not using something to kind of help the body get more of that botanical in, like a phytosome or something of that nature, then you're going to see variability there just because it's inherent. We could see that for a lot of different stuff, actually. But I think that's just one good example of genetics of an individual for certain vitamins, maybe another one, right? So, if we look at cellular metabolism and folate B12, like depending on how well you can take that and methylated, you may find that there's issues, right? So looking at tissue-ready forms may help level the playing field, even though some person-to-person variability will still be on line.
Dr. Robert Rountree
We were joking about caffeine, but I think that the example of caffeine is really a good one, because it seems like the population is almost evenly divided between people who don't tolerate caffeine hardly at all, and people who do really well on caffeine, there are people who do really well on it, it actually does improve their metabolism, it's beneficial. It's not just that it's a stimulant, it improves their metabolism.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly. And I think you pointed out a great one because in there, too, is the genetics of caffeine. Right? So that CYP metabolism point where individuals that are very sensitive to caffeine, actually some of them will have an increased cardiovascular risk, right? So they're putting their long-term health at risk by trying to push on that because their body is just not made to assimilate that well.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So the next person asks what are the most effective supplements for turbocharging my metabolism? So I guess that would be beyond caffeine. And then we know when you're talking about that there's a second part of that question. Can you overdose on metabolism boosters?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Right, and I think you know that to answer the second part first is the easiest. There it again goes back to, it depends. So, if we look back at those elevated materials that are going to be speed, yeah, I mean, if you took too many of those at once, you could seriously end up hurting yourself. Yeah.
Dr. Robert Rountree
Well, ephedra a really good example.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Right, I mean, you know, and I think that's where you start to get into that class and question of like something of an abuse potential, right? Like they were abused for their ability to perform, to not worry about food, to not eat like that, you know, and to be lean. So if you push that into the performance realm, that's when you really start to push the boundaries even more, right? And so you can definitely get seriously hurt, and weight loss is the same. But for outside that I do, I like the wan that obviously berberine works. I do think that because you have talked about it earlier, that kind of AMPK type of action. So working at really helping increase the efficiencies of energy expenditure or how you're burning energy through your mitochondria is really unique, and you get that little bit of the intestinal kind of GLP boost on top of it. But I think really focusing in on what that mitochondrial aspect is, is even stronger. To me, like that's really a standard, looking at that whole pathway or that molecular network with that. Then I would bring in nicotinamide riboside as a potential candidate or contender with that, because then it's going to be the downstream kind of reactions that come through. Once berberine activates that whole area, we'll all be NAD-dependent or, you know, and so you'll need that NAD to kind of bolster it. And then because as we age and as we lose some of this metabolic efficiency, which is kind of highlighted in an interesting word called pseudohypoxia, we aren't efficient enough at utilizing or creating our fuels. So that'll really help charge up. Then two, in somatic kind of components that are all downstream of how berberine work, which will be at your sirtuins, and then a really special little guy called PGC one. And one-alpha is kind of what everyone looks at and that'll kind of pair up with a few other epigenes for metabolism that really help kind of get things moving again as the mitochondria increase their number. So not only is it number that you're increasing with all of this combined together, but the efficiencies of burning that energy.
Dr. Robert Rountree
One thing that I might throw in, is that a lot of people don't think of for metabolism is quercetin
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah.
Dr. Robert Rountree
You know, people think of quercetin for allergy.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Exactly.
Dr. Robert Rountree
But there's actually some pretty good studies showing that quercetin can enhance mitochondrial biogenesis, which means it enhances the ability to make more mitochondria, which makes you more efficient in your metabolism. So that's one that I would certainly throw in the mix.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
I love that one.
Dr. Robert Rountree
I also wonder what you think about alpha lipoic acid, which I think a lot of people don't consider.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Yeah, no, I think, and those are all, you know, like I obviously I love the quercetin, that's a great add. And one of the things that's really interesting to your point is that utilization, and then for alpha lipoic acid I do also think that people kind of label it as a specific for supporting healthy neuro-function or nerve function, but it's doing it by really making sure that some of the energetics and some of the ways that works stay online. So, I do think there's a lot that can be said there, especially because the metabolism of fats ultimately is a big driver in how this mitochondrial efficiency can work in our favor in that beta-oxidation type of response.
Dr. Robert Rountree
It really comes down to efficient fat burning, doesn't it? I mean, isn't that essentially the issue? People who efficiently burn fat are able to make more ATP, they have more energy, they are physically more fit, and they don't have as much body fat.
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Right. And I think trying to get that energetic balance is where everything kind of goes sideways. But to your point, if that stays online, and all of the genetics and all the other factors we talked about, whether it's inflammation or deficiencies in glucose metabolism, that leads to more storage of fats, like all those things start to pile up. And that's kind of the collapse of that great oxidation pillar or that fat burning pillar. To your point, the real key piece of that.
Dr. Robert Rountree
So here's a really interesting kind of umbrella question. Are we too concerned with weight and metabolism or are we not concerned enough?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
You know, and I think it's a really, really good question and really one that we see, you know, as an argument back and forth into the public domain and how we think of this. Like always, there's like a mix of how we want to think of this. And that's why I really try to focus in on, are we too concerned with metabolism? And to me, that's the big piece of that, the metabolism, our metabolism, our resting metabolism. If we see it go offline regardless of we put the weight discussion and the things that can arise from that topic, we ultimately see issues within our system that leads to chronic decline. So I think what we should be looking at are the ways that we should be thinking about this. Instead are how do we tease that out, right, and say, this is kind of where we think because as we get into the weight ultimately what comes on is the arguments on BMI and whether or not that's something that is accurate and putting us into buckets and how different body shapes or body types may be like all this different stuff, but ultimately the metabolism and underneath that biochemistry pathway is kind of the thing that I think we could talk about because it leads to the things we spoke of the optimal health, which would be how is your microbiome working, how are these other processes in line? You know, we can see dysbiosis in the framework of a lot of these metabolic disorders and how they come on rise, right? So the newest one being PCOS, which doesn't have to have a weight component for diagnosis but has a core metabolic deficiency within its constructs, right?
Dr. Robert Rountree
So what you're really saying is weight is not the problem per se, weight is a result of a problem, can be the result of a problem? Somebody can be a bigger person, a heavier person, and be perfectly healthy, but it's the metabolism we need know about, which has really been the subject of this whole discussion. And you've given us some examples of how we can take a deep dive into metabolism by looking at the gut microbiome, you know, by looking at biomarkers. Probably biological age is part of that. So that's what we really need to be focusing on, does a person have a healthy metabolism?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
Correct, I think that's a great way of putting it, Bob.
Dr. Robert Rountree
This has been a fascinating discussion. I hope that we've given our listeners some things to think about, shall I say, food for thought. So, folks, that's all the time we have for this week. Dr. Stephen Phipps, thanks again so much for coming back on the podcast and sharing your insights with us. If people want to keep up with what you're doing, the latest developments at Thorne, where should they go?
Dr. Stephen Phipps
The biggest way I like to track what we got is our website. You'll see new products being launched, new types of content that discuss these issues, as well with the Take 5 Daily, and then things like LinkedIn, where you can find myself and our Thorne HealthTech groups.
Dr. Robert Rountree
As always, thanks everyone for listening and until next time.
Dr. Robert Rountree - Outro
Thanks for listening to The Thorne Podcast. Make sure to never miss an episode by subscribing to the show on your podcast app of choice. If you've got a health or wellness question you'd like answered, simply follow our Instagram and shoot a message to @ThorneHealth. You can also learn more about the topics we discussed by visiting Thorne.com and checking out the latest news videos and stories on Thorne’s Take 5 Daily blog. Once again, thanks for tuning in and don't forget to join us next time for another episode of The Thorne Podcast.
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