Episode 66: Keeping the Brain Healthy with Dr. Mary Kay Ross Part 2

Dr. Robert Rountree:

This is The Thorne Podcast, the show that navigates the complex world of wellness and explores the latest science behind diet, supplements, and lifestyle approaches to good health. I'm Dr. Robert Roundtree, chief medical advisor at Thorne and functional medicine doctor. As a reminder, the recommendations made in this podcast are the recommendations of the individuals who express them and not the recommendations of Thorne. Statements in this podcast have not been evaluated by the Food and drug Administration. Any products mentioned are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Hi, everybody, welcome back to The Thorne Podcast. Rejoin us this week, we're going to have my colleague, Dr. Mary Kay Ross who is the chief medical officer at Thorne. And she's here again to share her knowledge on the brain, cognition, nootropics, and just about any other thing related to health and medicine. So welcome back Mary Kay.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Thank you Bob, it's exciting to be here. I'm excited to talk about some of the subjects that we mentioned last time and to continue on this time with them.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

You bet. It seems like we started touching on a lot of things related to the brain that are all connected to other things, which is always true for brain related health issues that sometimes people think, well, the brain is a different part of me, it's stuck up there in the cranium and it's unrelated to the rest of my body. Nothing could be further than the truth I think you would say.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Your brain is definitely related to everything else in your body, and all things need to be working.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

I wish we could get more neurologists on board with that idea that maybe things you do like exercise actually impact your brain health.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Absolutely exercise, diet, how you view the world and your world, and your attitude, absolutely. All of it affects your brain, and all of it affects your health.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So I guess that brings us into to what I thought would be a really good topic to explore in a little more detail, which is brain health for younger people maybe that are not so much at risk for dementia, Alzheimer's, age related memory decline, but younger people who complain about things like brain fog. I wonder what your take on brain fog is. It's interesting because if you look up brain fog in the medical journals, you don't find a huge number of articles on it. But yet brain fog's the kind of thing that if you bring up in conversation with friends, everybody has some idea about it, some thoughts about it. But it seems like it's not officially a medical entity, I wonder why that is.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Well, because I think it's such a nebulous thing, but it definitely is getting so much more attention now, which I think is wonderful. Because as I look back through my practice, I have for many, many years seen people with true brain fog. But I don't think that we paid the same amount of attention to it as we do today. And I'm really glad that we do because I think that it is a sign of many other things. Most people think of brain fog as a temporary state of a diminished mental capacity. You can't concentrate, maybe you can't focus, you can't do your job as well. And now with COVID, we're learning this is so common with so many people with long haul COVID, and it also affects people with TBI, people-

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Traumatic Brain Injury.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Absolutely. And even mild traumatic brain injury that you would think that, oh, he just had his bell rung in a hockey game and then suddenly the poor guy, maybe he's a teenager and he's not doing well in school. And it can be related to that. It's really an interesting concept that now we're really dealing with in society much more commonly.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Sometimes it's a little challenging for me as a clinician because people will be sitting in front of me in my office or on a zoom call and they say, "Boy, I have this terrible brain fog," and yet they're carrying on a conversation. They look normal, everything seems normal about them, but they say, "I just can't think." What's a clinician supposed to do when they get presented with that kind of scenario? It's not like you've got somebody in front of you with a broken arm where it's really obvious. But with brain fog, as you said, it's nebulous, it's a bit more subtle. And other than acknowledging it and saying, "Well, yeah, I hear that you have brain fog," do we really have any tools for measuring it or anything you can suggest that we use to help the person understand how severe is this and what do we begin to do? How do we address it?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I think that's a great question. We actually are going to have a brain fog study starting that Thorne will be involved in. And we will be looking at three different groups, and that is probably going to be teed off in the next month or so. And we'll have lots of different research partners involved in that. But the thing is to measure it is really tough. If you have someone who really performs well on a daily basis, they have a very high IQ and a high functioning level and you try to give them some sort of a neuropsychological evaluation, they're likely to do well on it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

They're going to ace the test.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's right. You can't take an x-ray of a broken bone, but what you can do is you can do lots of questionnaires that can query their mood and how they're feeling and their energy level and what's been going on. And then you can also do some basic blood work, make sure that everything's optimized, their vitamin D level is good. Make sure that they don't have something else going on. And then I think that there are definitely ways to improve brain fog. There are a lot of clinics today that are treating long haul COVID, and they're doing that and treating brain fog. And they're using physical therapists and occupational therapists together actually to work on these patients, and people are getting better. So it's really interesting.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

We're actually going to do a really deep dive and look at a lot of the labs and the whole thing trying to put this together. I think the mechanisms for the three groups that we're looking at are slightly different. So long haul COVID versus, for example, TBI, versus chemo brain. Chemo brain is a big one. And certainly that's toxicity, it's also mitochondrial. Their mitochondria are affected and not able to make the energy that they're needing. I think I'm really excited about it, I'm going to learn a lot,

Dr. Robert Rountree:

It's kind of ironic that we've had to have this terrible pandemic to really bring brain fog into the awareness of mainstream clinicians and neurologists in general. I was kind of alluding to earlier, it was one of those conditions that didn't get any respect. People say, "I have brain fog." Oh yeah, you didn't get enough sleep. Something like that. You need to clean up your act, you need to drink a little bit less. But now we know that people get COVID-19 and end up with severe brain fog for at least months. And that brain fog is, as you said, is really similar to what I've seen women that got chemotherapy for breast cancer years ago and said, "My brain has never worked right."

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So I've actually seen articles on chemo brain, and that's an accepted thing. And now what I hear you saying is we're really trying to get into the mechanisms of what's going on. What's the mechanism behind chemo brain? What's the mechanism behind COVID-19 brain fog? And I'm hearing at least three things that it's inflammation, that it's mitochondrial dysfunction, and that it's toxicity. So it seems like with those mechanisms we can really take that ball and run with it.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Absolutely. And I think honestly there is a lot that we can do to help these people. I do think that the brain fog is so prevalent with post COVID patients, and I think that it has brought this front and center. If you think back, Bob, a few years ago and a few, I'm kind of teasing. So for a long time, there's been chronic fatigue clinics. And these were people who oftentimes they look like the healthy person but inside they feel like they're just dying. And I think it's the same thing with the brain fog, I mean honestly. It's a very hard thing for a physician to put their finger on, but it's a very real thing. And it's devastating for patients, they have to stop school, they can't continue with their jobs, they just can't function. I think it's 55% of COVID patients, sorry.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

55, wow.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Percent that still have neurological symptoms three months after their illness.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Is that true for Omicron too or is that all forms of COVID or do we know yet?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

You know, I don't know how Omicron plays into this to be honest with you.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Just because it's supposed to less severe than the alpha variant, delta variant. One would think somebody can get Omicron and still end up in the ICU, so it can still have these devastating systemic effects.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's true. And some people believe that really the COVID virus sort of hijacks the cells. So if that's the case, I don't know that would make a difference even if it were a milder form of virus.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

It could still do the same damage

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I would think so.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Now, here's something I've seen on and off for years that I've always been curious about is a person that tells me they may be feeling a little bit better, almost okay and then they eat. And it doesn't matter what they eat. Initially you might think, well, that happens when you eat sugar or gluten or dairy or something you're sensitive to. But I've had people over the years tell me anytime they eat then they start feeling this brain fog within an hour. And I've often wondered is there some chemical that's being released by the gut microbiome or is it endotoxemia? I know that's a little bit of a technical word for some of our readers, so maybe we can talk about it. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that person who says their brain fog gets worse after they eat. Is it a metabolomics issue, what path should we be going down for somebody like that?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I definitely go to the microbiome and wonder if there's something that their bacteria and their gut is making that they're responding to. I think that's really an interesting thought, we know what happens. I feel like so many things are so related the microbiome. I guess you're sounding like your patients don't have more than just brain fog, that's a little more nebulous and certainly can be several other things as well. You have to look at the metabolisms and see if they are having any glucose issues, insulin issues certainly. It could be a bacteria in the gut for sure because we know that that can have all kinds of effects on you that I think is really interesting.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Well, part of what's really gotten my curiosity up is these studies. I think there at least one, maybe more of people with long haul COVID showing that their gut microbiome is way out of whack, that they have severe dysbiosis. So that would fit with what you're saying that if there's a particular bacteria that's making a particular chemical, we may not know what that chemical is yet, but perhaps these people with long COVID are getting this dysbiosis and that's making the chemical and somehow eating is spurring that bacteria on to make more of that bad chemical. Does it seem like a good hypothesis?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I think that is fascinating and that certainly could be a great hypothesis. And then take it one and step further, certainly the chemical could be having the effect on the brain. And also if they truly have bad dysbiosis, they certainly can develop leaky brain as well, blood brain barrier.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Can, can you say a little more about that leaky blood brain barrier?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Well, absolutely. So your blood brain barrier is designed to keep toxins out, and it has to do with the size of the particles. First of all, when you have a leaky gut, you're allowing things to get through the membrane of the gut that shouldn't, and you can develop autoimmune disease. And we really believe that it also promotes brain problems. So you get a leaky blood brain barrier where suddenly bacteria can fit through, viruses can fit through, toxins can fit through. It's fascinating even parts of your body like albumin shouldn't be in your blood brain barrier, get through your blood brain barrier. But when it does, then it can bind with other inflammatory things and create a lot of brain inflammation, and yeah, lead to amyloid deposition. So it's really interesting how our body works and how we have these defenses that get broken down. And it can be from our environment, it can be from lots of different things.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So this brings two questions up for me. One is, are you going to be doing the Thorne gut health test which is a really sophisticated test for the different kind of microbes in the gut? Are you going to be doing that test in any of these brain health studies? And then the second part of that is how do we treat the leaky blood brain barrier? The two different related things, but kind of related actually.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Yes, I'm going to be doing. So in the study with the brain fog, we will be looking at the microbiome through the Thorne test. And then in the brain program, which I think we talked about last time, we are putting together a brain wellness program for Thorne. This is something that doctors, all doctors, all practitioners, I guess they don't have to be an MD, will be able to access this and utilize it for their patients. And we will actually provide them with a artificial intelligence platform that will give them a personalized program designed specifically for their patient. And so in that program, we will be looking at microbiome for sure. And we will definitely be using the Thorne study and several of the other joint studies as well just where needed. It's not a blanket thing that we have to do, whereas in the study we will do it with everybody. But it's interesting when I think about the different defenses, the other thing I've been really interested in lately is pulmonary endothelial permeability.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Really, leaky lung?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Leaky lung. And I think it's just really fascinating,

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Well, leaky gut, leaky brain, and leaky lung.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's right.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And where do you see that happening?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

So you see that with a lot of problems with leaky gut, you can see it with people that are inhaling a lot of pollution and toxins. And really it can break down the pulmonary defense system, if you will. But I think it's really interesting with leaky gut because I find that there are people that eat and then they are coughing and they develop this whole mast cell activation syndrome, they also have a leaky lung. I think it was Dr. Kharrazian I was just listening to on this recently.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Oh yeah, I know Datis well.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Yeah, smart man.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Very smart guy. I mean, this a whole other topic for discussion, but I understand the number one environmental risk factor for rheumatoid arthritis is cigarette smoking and/or air pollution. So the thought is that we used to say rheumatoid arthritis starts in the gut. Now there's pretty good evidence that rheumatoid arthritis actually starts in the lungs.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Isn't that interesting?

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Really interesting. So this inflammatory process causes leaky lung syndrome and then that leads to this systemic autoimmune reaction, which completely fits in with what you're saying.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Exactly. Now, it's fascinating, very, very interesting.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So what do we do for leak barriers? You know this that in the Institute for Functional Medicine, we often quote this old saying that good fences make good neighbors, which is that if you've got healthy barriers, then that goes a long way to preventing a wide range of illnesses, from brain disorders to lung, to autoimmune, to inflammatory bowel disease, et cetera. I'm wondering what your favorite nutrients are, especially with a focus on the leaky blood brain barrier.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

So for the leaky blood brain barrier, to me, you've got to put the inflammation out. You get this inflammation going that is just crazy, then you can get the astrocytes stirred up and glial cells. It's like transmitting inflammation everywhere. It's got to be put out, that fire has to be put out. So the supplements that I like, I think you have to think about your membranes. So when you think about membranes, I certainly think about good fats, good healthy fats for the brain. The brain is a territory full of fat., and it also is an energy hog. I try to think about membranes. I've been very interested in plasmalogens recently. I spent an hour with Dr. Goodenowe yesterday.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Oh, you did?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I did. And I think that's fascinating. So I'm trying to learn more about that and see where that comes in and how it all works. But it's fascinating.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Dr. Goodenowe is a pretty brilliant guy, and he's written a lot of articles. Just that hardly anybody else is talking about this, but him. So either he's way ahead of the crowd or off on a tangent, it sounds like you feel like he's way ahead.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I think he may be way ahead to be honest with you. I've had a few patients that we've reached out and used some of his supplements, they've helped them. I talked with Dr. Phipps at Thorne, and lo and behold, we're looking into that. Well. So I was very excited to hear that.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So stay tuned on that one.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's right. So that prompted me to get back together with Dr. Goodenowe because I need to be on my game, I need to understand more

Dr. Robert Rountree:

What's out there?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Yeah, and learn more. Anyhow, I think that is fascinating. So you have to have a good membrane. You want to put out your inflammation, and you need to make sure your mitochondrial function is good. It's a very mitochondrial rich territory. I love good fish oil, I think that's important. DHA is very important in the brain. I'm a big believer in curcumin, it's one of my very favorite things. So our Meriva SF-500 is my favorite thing. And so anyone that knows me or that's a patient of mine probably is on a couple of grams of that a day as I am. I think it really helps stabilize the brain. It reduces the progression of neuronal damage. You can speak to this probably better than I because you've actually been with and involved with Thorne much longer than I. But the truth is it's the most studied, curcumin, I think that we have.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah, there are at least some studies on Meriva.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

And curcumin is something that is not normally well absorbed, and the bio availability is very poor. Encapsulated in a phytosome, it is very well absorbed and very well tolerated. So that's one of my big favorites. Phosphatidylcholine is really important.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

I was just going to ask.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Really interesting, we're working with this embody platform at Thorne where we're looking at digital twin populations, and phosphatidylcholine has become so pronounced. It's really very important. It can actually help stave off brain problems for many years, like 10, 15 years if you were inevitably going to develop them. Something that we use in all of our patients. One of the things that I think we're going to start doing with the stool study though is to look at TMAO because that is one of the things that the gut microbiome can make when you take phosphatidylcholine. But what it does is it actually helps, our brain has mechanisms of dealing with things. You can think of leaky brain, you can think of inflammation. But one of the things that really causes a lot of problems in the brain is dyshomeostasis of the cholesterol.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

And so it's how it's managed, and it can actually overburden the neurons. So that's where the phosphatidylcholine comes in. It really helps restore the cholesterol homeostasis so that the brain isn't overworking. I mean, it's just as important to do that as it is to make sure you have good mitochondrial function and everything else. So that's certainly a thing. Nicotinamide riboside, very important.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Just before we finish up on that, the phosphatidylcholine, isn't that the main component of the sunflower lecithin than that Thorne uses in the its phytosomes.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

It sure it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So when you take Meriva or Quercetin Phytosome or Siliphos, which is Silymarin Phytosome then you're getting a

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Is it ResveraCel?

Dr. Robert Rountree:

The Quercetin Phytosome is in ResveraCel, yeah. I think you're getting a pretty good dose of phosphatidylcholine or PC in all of those supplements. So you can take PC by itself, which is a great thing, but you're also getting it as a side benefit when you're taking any of the phytosome products.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Absolutely.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And then I just wanted to mention, and then I think we'll need to take a break after this question, but you brought up mast cell activation syndrome. I know that Dr. Theoharides at Tufts has done a lot of work on mast cell mediators, chemicals released by mast cells and how those affect the blood brain barrier. And he actually has done on a lot of research on using Quercetin to help stabilize mast cells. So I wonder if Quercetin Phytosome part of your program?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

It is. I actually love using ResveraCel is one of my favorite things for my patients because they get Quercetin Phytosome, they get the trans-Resveratrol. They get the trimethylglycine to help with methylation, and then they have nicotinamide riboside.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

All in one.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

All in one. And then I sometimes then continue giving, depending on the patient and what their needs are, I will continue to bump up some of those things. So Quercetin is a very safe thing to use and very well tolerated. So sometimes I'll give additional Quercetin if I have someone that I think is having a bigger problem.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

But it sounds like you like to use the ResveraCel as your foundational product, and then you build on that-

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's exactly what I do

Dr. Robert Rountree:

For individuals. Very cool. Well, I think we need to take a break. So after the break, we'll come back and answer some questions from our listeners that will go into a little bit more detail about all this. Hello, this is Dr. Robert Roundtree, your host of The Thorne Podcast. Do you have a health topic you want covered or a question you want answered on the show, then reach out to us on Instagram and we'll try and cover it in a future episode. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the show through your favorite podcast app. Subscribing to the show enables you to stay up to date on the latest in medical research, follow the next big ideas in health and technology, and get insights from experts on common health concerns. Subscribe today through the podcast app of your choice. Thanks for listening, now let's get back to the show.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And we're back. So now it's time to answer some questions that have come in from our community. We always appreciate it. And the first one this week comes from someone who asked how does blood sugar impact the brain? And what does it mean to be hangry? Is that related to blood sugar, is it more complicated than that? Does that mean there's brain damage going on? Mary Kay, what do you think?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Well, I don't think that it means that you have brain damage going on, but definitely it's a glucose thing. If you're that person and maybe even some of us can relate to this and you eat more carbs and you have spikes in blood sugar, and then they fall, it can make you feel as if you need food. It can make you feel as if you're hungry and you feel angry and you have low blood glucose levels. I believe that it's because you tend to eat more carbs. And if you were to eat more of a ... They get broken down quickly into simple sugars and amino acids, and you use them quicker. And the brain is a very, as I said, an energy hog. And I think that it can make you feel that fatigue, that irritability. And if you change your approach to eating and try to eat more fats, healthy fats, that is and not as many high carbs and simple sugars, it can make a difference.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

I remember years ago, hearing Dr. Richard Wurtman at MIT talking about this. And what he said is when people have these kind of symptoms, it's more than just drops in blood sugar or even spikes in blood sugar. The insulin is affecting branch chain amino acid which are competing with tryptophan. And that your insulin levels go up, and that actually ends up causing more trip tryptophan to go into the brain. If you get a spike in your blood sugar, your insulin goes up and then you end up transporting more tryptophan in the brain and that can make you feel really groggy. Is that something that we still think is true? That was a hypothesis.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I think that makes sense. I definitely think that it's more than just glucose, it's definitely an insulin response. There's no doubt about it, no doubt about it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So insulin can do all kinds of things to not just glucose but to your amino acids as well.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

This is an interesting question, what's the worst thing for your, your brain? What's more damaging your brain? Is being addicted to caffeine, is that damaging to your brain? What about alcohol? What does that do to the brain or other drugs? And by drugs, I assume they mean recreational drugs, things like THC or cocaine or things like that. What's the gist of what all these things do to our brain cells?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

So I'm a big believer that alcohol is very bad for your brain. I think alcohol is a neurotoxin. I also worry about the other things in alcohol. So take wine for example, and I like wine. But if you think about wine and think about the strain of the grapes and everything else that you're getting, it can be very toxic. So I definitely feel like-

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Because of the pesticides you mean?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Yes, yes. The glyphosate. I really believe that alcohol though is a toxin. I think that's probably part of what makes people like it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

As toxins go, it's one of the best

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

As toxins go, it works really well.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And even more than just a little bit of moderation, maybe just an every now and then.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Exactly. I don't think that people were meant to sit down and drink daily and to drink multiple drinks every day. I don't think that's good for you. So I definitely think that's toxic to our brain for sure.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Do you think caffeine is toxic? I have to say it's one of my favorite drugs, probably one of the favorite drugs over all over the world, but is it bad for you?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I think that too much ... So caffeine, first of all as you know, there's a genetic component, some of us metabolize it better than others. I'm a poor metabolizer, I'm not that person that can drink caffeine and go to bed. So I don't drink a lot. I always have a cup in the morning and I stop right there because if not then I'm just wired, for some. But there are many, many studies that show that caffeine actually enhances to a point, your cognition, that your focus and you function better. I have some patients I'm thinking of one in particular, he just thrives on caffeine, and it seems to work. I also worry about mycotoxins in caffeine. I don't know the perfect answer, I'm not that person that recommends everybody stop drinking coffee. And I'm not the doctor that recommends you have to buy this specific brand to avoid your mycotoxins because I'm not sure that I really believe that is a doable thing. But I do wonder about it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Depending on where the coffee's grown exactly you mean, if it's heavily sprayed?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And that's a coffee you're going at a big chain that doesn't say it's organic.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's right, that's exactly right. And it does make a difference. I do think it makes a difference to buy organic things, and especially coffee would be one of them. I don't think coffee's terribly dangerous for the brain in and of itself for each and every person.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

It's interesting, there is a particular form of caffeine that I'm really fond of. And it's a caffeine pterostilbene co-crystal. Right. It sounds really fancy. But it's basically a way of making the caffeine kind of time release so it doesn't cause this big surge. And Thorne uses it in their product Memoractiv.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Memoractiv, yes, they sure do.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So it's interesting because it's not forgiving people a caffeine rush, but in my experience of taking that particular form of caffeine is that I do experience more alertness.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I've taken it actually, I do too.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Without being Shaky, doesn't make you shaky. So it sounds like the verdict from both of us is that improper doses and maybe in the right form like that co-crystal caffeine can be beneficial for the brain without necessarily causing the cardiovascular effects.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's right, that's exactly right.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And then as far as the other drugs go, the addictive drugs like cocaine and meth and stuff like that, it seems to me like those things just fry your brain.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I think you're right.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

This is your brain on drugs.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I don't know quite what to discuss for that, but, yes. They're definitely-

Dr. Robert Rountree:

My impression is that what they do is they basically release your body's entire stores of dopamine in five minutes. And dopamine is not one of those things that you want to release rapidly, you want little squirts of it here or there from pleasurable things you do like exercise. Dopamine is nature's system for giving us little bits of pleasure from time to time. If you use all that up in five minutes, you're you're going to be in bad shape.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's exactly right. Those are interesting. Not that I've done this a lot, but I have a handful of people that have been referred to me that have had problems with methamphetamine. And it's really interesting trying to get them back to where everything's at the proper level and their neurotransmitters are calmer and increasing the inhibitory. It's an interesting thing. And I've done a little bit with testing neurotransmitters and had some good results. It's interesting.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Well, that's going to give me an excuse to jump ahead on one of the questions that I think is relevant to this. One of the reader says, I love Thorne's PharmaGABA product, can you explain what that does exactly. And I have to say, I love that, I love PharmaGABA, I take it all the time myself.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Yeah. So GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. And really in our brain, I don't know that people think about this is you have sort of the yin and the yang. You've got the excitatory, you've got the inhibitor. And you need balance, we need balance. When we increase our brain levels of GABA, it can have an anxiolytic effect. It reduces feeling of stress, restlessness, it can help you with sleep. If you have trouble with sleep, it can be associated with increased alpha brain waves and decreases the beta brain waves and can really be calming. So when I look at neurotransmitters which I think that the downside of looking at them is that they're transient. So lots of things can change them and can change them quickly. You have to understand, you're looking at a picture in time and they have to be tested rather frequently if we choose to do that approach.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

But it's really interesting to balance them and then try to determine where imbalances are because obviously serotonin a lot of it is in your gut. And so if you've got an unhealthy gut, there's chances that you have problems. I think it's an interesting thing to look at and an interesting thing to try and balance.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

I've had some colleagues that say, "Well, GABA, you can't absorb it and you can't get into your brain." But there are published human studies on PharmaGABA showing that it changes, I think it's either brainwave activity or behaviors that there's no other explanation for how it would be working other than saying it's somehow getting into the brain and binding to those GABA receptors, which are the same receptors that Valium binds to, by the way.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's exactly right.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

But you know, PharmaGABA, doesn't have a Valium effect. It's much milder.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Milder.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

It just makes people feel calm, and I've never seen anybody get dependent on it or have withdrawal all from it or anything like that.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

No, no, no. It's a great anxiolytic calming thing. And you're right, you don't feel like you ... If you take valerian root, sometimes you feel like you've taken a Valium. But you won't feel that with the PharmaGABA. Interesting question for you, so you're right that a lot of people will say GABA cannot get into the brain. There are some people that are proponents of if you want to find out if you have a leaky blood brain barrier, take a gram of GABA and see if you feel it in the morning. And the reality is, I wondered if it wasn't depending on how the GABA is prepared, if you will, and the size of the molecule.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

There there's something about the PharmaGABA, which comes from a plant that I think may increase its absorption over some of the other GABA products I've seen over the counter that are synthetic GABA. Whereas the PharmaGABA I think maybe has a slightly different chemical structure. I don't remember the name of the plant that it comes from, but it is an extract I think from seeds.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Yes. No, it definitely is. And I don't remember the name of it either, but it does come from a plant. And I don't know the size of the molecule, if it's different than the synthetic. My gut is that it probably is, it's definitely better absorbed. And you definitely see changes in brainwaves.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Earlier you talked curcumin, omega-3 fatty acids, especially DHA, phosphatidylcholine. And the next question is relevant to that, this person says, well, what vitamins are best for your brain? Are there other things that are particularly good for the brain like mitochondrial support nutrients or B vitamins, things like that?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Yes. So one of my favorite things that Thorne I think has that is amazing. And again, it is one of those things that is in my foundational supplements, and then you can add more if need be. And it's a form of vitamin B3 is nicotinamide riboside. And it's a pre cursor of NAD, which is essential. It's taken orally, it's got great bio-availability. For cognitive decline, I think it's really exciting to think of what it can do and what it can bring and it also increases hippocampal synaptic plasticity. And that was I think in a diabetic mouse model.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And the hippocampus is the brain's card catalog for memories.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's exactly right, it is. It's your memory center is what I tell people. It definitely is. And one more thing that we didn't mention that I think is worth mentioning, and I was going to do it when we were on our coffee thing is whole coffee fruit extract. And the reason I want to mention that is it too is so good for the brew brain, and it increases something called BDNF, which is Brain Deriv Neurotropic Factor. It's like the growth hormone for the brain. And Thorne is making that. So we don't have it out yet, but it's coming. And I'm really excited about it because it's a very hard thing to find right now. I think it'll be a great addition to our brain armamentarium, if you will.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

What about CoQ10? Is that something that you think is a helpful brain, nutrient? People think-

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

CoQ10 is so important.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

They think for the heart, but what about the brain?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Well, it's definitely important for the brain, yes, absolutely.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Do you have any preference over of the form of the CoQ10? I know that the powdered CoQ10 is not well absorbed.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Our CoQ10 Thorne is a gelcap, and it's very well absorbed. And that's actually what I've been using for my patients.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yep, I can attest to that too just from measuring, giving it to people and then measuring their blood levels. So I know it gets into the bloodstream, I've got proof of it.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Yeah, no, it's interesting. It definitely works, and it's very, very important for brain function and mitochondrial function.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

The last question I think we can talk about a while, can you detox your brain, and how is that related to gut detox?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Interesting. Yes, you can detox your brain. When we talk about toxins in the brain and in the gut, let's talk about for example a heavy metal. Heavy metals definitely affect brain health, they affect our entire health and can cause great problems. And yet, I don't know if you want me to go into this. But when I detox people, I'm very careful to make sure their gut is intact before we really get hot and heavy into detox where you can make them very sick.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Do you want to know what's happening with their gut microbiome first?

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

I do, I like to do that, absolutely.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Say what would you typically find in somebody who you might call a toxic patient? And let me just say, I think we should probably come back and do a whole episode on toxins and the brain and toxins in general. So stay tuned everybody because I think we'll come back and address this whole thing about mycotoxins and heavy metals and all that. But right now I'm just wondering what might you see in the gut microbiome that raises a red flag that says, okay, I need to work on this and that's going to help me detox the brain.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

So I think first of all, if you're just talking to lay people just to understand. The way that I view this, and I don't know if you'll agree with this or not, is I view our body as a bathtub. Think about it, you're born, most of us, not all of us, but most of us are born pristine. We have a great tub, it drains well. The water flows in when you need it to but you can pull the drain which is a analogous to your body's innate ability to detox. And that takes into affect your genetics and everything else. But we all go through life and we store things. We pack things in our tub, if you will, we layer them in. So when you get a really toxic person, suddenly everything they do matters. It matters if their diet's horrible, it matters as if they are in a house full of smokers.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

And so when I look at a toxic person, and I look at, for example, their stool study, you're going to see that they're not going to have good absorption because their gut's broken down. I think of the gut, you think about the way the mucosa should be of the gut. It absorbs nutrients, it's got finger-like projections called villi. I think I've heard a long time ago, and I don't remember who it was lecturing, they were using the analogy of a shag carpet. And that gives you increased surface area to absorb. Well, suddenly it's like if you're a diver and you know what a bad coral reef looks like, it's just everything's dead. So poor absorption, lack of short chain fatty acid, which is what we have from the good microbiome, from having the good bacteria, they'll have pathologic bacteria. Their secretory IGA will be elevated, their immune system is flared.

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

Ad that's what you really see with a sick person. And if you go and you try to start detoxing, you've got to remember, when you're pulling toxins out in the human body, it's circulating suddenly. And if your gut is leaky, you're suddenly dispersing it in other areas that you don't want it to go. So I think it's really important to make sure that you have optimized all your nutritional status, you fix the gut if it's leaky, and then you go after the detox program.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Wonderful. Well, I think that's going to be a perfect setup for our next episode where we'll go into toxicity in a lot more detail. That's all we have time for this week. Dr. Ross, thank you so much for coming back on. It's always great talking to you and always seems like there's more we can talk about

Dr. Mary Kay Ross:

That's right. Well, Bob, thank you for having me.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So that's Dr. Mary Kay Ross who's Thorne's chief medical officer, and this was our second episode about brain health. As always, thank you everyone for listening. If like what you heard, tell a friend, let them know about the show and ask them to tune in, until next time. Thanks for listening to The Thorne Podcast. Make sure to never miss an episode by subscribing to the show on your podcast app of choice. If you've got a health or wellness question you'd like answered, simply follow our Instagram and shoot a message to @thornehealth. You can also learn more about the topics we discussed by visiting thorne.com and checking out the latest news, videos and stories on Thorne's Take 5 Daily blog. Once again, thanks for tuning in. And don't forget to join us next time for another episode of The Thorne Podcast.