Episode 63: New Approaches to Kids’ Nutrition

Robert Rountree:

This is the Thorne podcast. The show that navigates the complex world of wellness and explores the latest science behind diet, supplements and lifestyle approaches to good health.

Robert Rountree:

I'm Dr. Robert Rountree, chief medical advisor at Thorne and functional medicine doctor. As a reminder, the recommendations made in this podcast are the recommendations of the individuals who express them and not the recommendations of Thorne. Statements in this podcast have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any products mentioned are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

Robert Rountree:

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Thorne podcast. Joining me this week is my friend and colleague, Dr. Steven Phipps, who is the chief innovation officer at Thorne Health Tech. So Steven, welcome to the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about your background and how you got to be doing what you're doing now?

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah, of course. Glad to be here and being able to talk. It's always a pleasure to be able to have my colleague in the room. My backstory really starts off with botany actually before medicine. And so I really got interested in the ways that plants have been a piece of our culture and our diversity as a species over time. And so ethnobotany was really what got me started down the path of looking at medicine and what that could look like or be.

Stephen Phipps:

And so from there, I went and did a PhD under a doctor from Germany by the name of Dr. Budeveck, who was looking at hypericum, which is St John's work and looking at not hyperforin, but actually hyperoside, which is one of the flavanoids in that plant. And then how some of the other compounds that in there like anthocyanins and some of these kind of precursors to other products were actually helping it get into the body in a way that had its own little package to deliver.

Stephen Phipps:

And so by protecting it from the stomach acid and the like, and so that is what started me off looking at then the medical potential of it. And then from there, I kind of wanted to make sure that I took that medical potential of plants and brought it over to medicine. So I went and did my naturopathic doctorate at Bastyr University, was a resident there for two years after I graduated, was doing a lot of work outside of the main clinic in areas like homeless teen shelters in Seattle, shelters open and around for women and trying to look at nutrient disparities and mental health problems as they were coming up in areas with lower access than what we'd be seeing in the clinic itself.

Robert Rountree:

Wow. That's so you actually went from doing the very technical work of asking what's in a plant that is effective and all the details involved with that pharmacology to application, to working with disadvantaged children, getting basically out in the streets. So, that's a pretty broad set of experiences you have.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah, no, and I appreciated it. And I think the biggest thing was that moving over, being a technical scientist, I didn't spend a lot of time out and about. So, I think being a doctor and understanding people and what their needs and what they're looking for and their drives and all that was very helpful just in general because I was quite the nerdy scientist back then. So I feel like I've at least been able to blossom into someone that can be on a podcast without completely sweating.

Robert Rountree:

Well, I have to say there's something about being on the spot with the patient that really makes you translate all that data that might be in your head into something that you can use. What are you going to do now? What are you going to recommend that this person take, or what diet should they go on, et cetera. So clinical medicine really forces scientists to be practical.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. And connect, right. And I think that's kind of the cool thing about it, because every individual will have their own unique journey into why they're dealing with what they're dealing with. And so that piece of humanity, I think, is something that only comes from being able to have that expertise in clinical sciences because you're not going to get that doing experimentation. The variables are very reduced on a bench work that I would be doing, say, some preclinical studies on or in vitro cell lines. That's pretty much just A and B and how do I do A through Z and make sure that that person's getting exactly what they need?

Robert Rountree:

So you've really taken a journey from, as we say, the bench to the clinic, and then now you're back to designing products and making things available to a larger audience.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. And so from that, I think one of the things that I always enjoyed, even when I was practicing, was the clinical science and clinical trial work. And so that got me into understanding more about Thorne and the Thorne ecosystem. And I came over to work for Thorne in 2015 and started as the director of clinical programs. So really trying to create a structure and a pipeline for our research abroad and different research organizations, whether it be Mayo or someone wanting to study something in University of Florida, for example. So that kind of was what drove it, but then yeah, the product development side of it really took over. And that's kind of my main focus now as the chief innovation officer.

Robert Rountree:

Great. Well, that actually segues right into what we're going to talk about and focus on today, which is children and the need for children to eat a healthier diet and maybe take dietary supplements and the case, the potential case for kids to take dietary supplements. So can we start by talking about how a child's nutritional needs differ from that in an adult? And I would put a little frame around that, which is the way I was trained is in prenatal care, you get the mom ready that once she has that baby, at some point, she should put that kid on multivits, liquid Poly-Vi-Sol, I think that was the big one, put them on Poly-Vi-Sol with iron and and you do that for a few months. You stop and then you're done basically. Your kid's fine for the rest of his life.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, it's quite a difference, right? So if we look at just the general realms of where I think, where we see nutrition needs and children in the differentiations is over time, there's these I think frameworks or structures that we're seeing developmentally that happen in different realms that you're going to need various different supports. And that may come from even just right from the womb where we see the discussion around probiotic supplementation, what would be the difference from the probiotic supplementation needs of, say, a vaginal birth versus a cesarean section, right. There's lots of research there that says that might be different and necessary, and that would really help with supporting the growing learnings of the immune system because I think that's kind of one of the first things is that's a clean slate.

Stephen Phipps:

So as soon as they come out, they spend a lot of time with mom and dad, and they spend time really in their environment. And so they're immune system's learning. And so that's one of those first things that we see, and it's also, I could say as a new parent about to have my third, it's one of the most traumatic things to think about as you're trying to say, please don't put that in your mouth, but you're also in the back of your head like, "Well, no, really they should put something there because they're trying to learn," but it's still one of those things where you're like, "Oh, it's so gross."

Stephen Phipps:

So, I think there's that, but then as they're taking in their environment, obviously in these next stages, and they're trying to synthesize their self and the like. There's a lot of neurological development and tracks laying down in different areas of brain that are really trying to take in a lot of nutrients and a lot of vitamins and minerals to really support some of the neurotransmitter development, neurotransmitter metabolism, obviously taking in a bunch of caloric needs for those neurons in different forms. And then lastly, obviously, they're growing. So the skeletal system over time has these growth spurts and they put a tremendous stress on things like our vitamin D, vitamin K and calcium and magnesium pools.

Robert Rountree:

So on the one end, you've got growing kids who are putting down more tissue, right? They're making more brain material. They're making lots more brain material, hopefully, and they're making bones and skin, connective tissue. So they need all these extra nutrients. And yet kids tend to be picky eaters, as you well know. I mean, I've certainly been around a lot of kids over the years who would only eat Mac and cheese three times a day, that's all they would eat.

Stephen Phipps:

Oh yeah.

Robert Rountree:

Mac and cheese. And not even Mac and cheese made with healthy ingredients, but instant Mac and cheese.

Stephen Phipps:

Yep. Yeah. The glowing orange cheese powder, right? That would be it. And yeah, that still persists. I mean, that's one of the things, and I think also the psychology around that's kind of changing too, which kind of makes some of this a little harder to go around. When I was growing up and my parents were telling me about, "Don't be a pick eater, try this even if you don't like it," and kind of having an increased pressure to eat all these different foods, a lot of now what's going on is nutritionists are saying that won't necessarily be a well-rounded diet later, which is hard because you can't just make chicken nuggets for your kid all day and not go, "Oh my gosh, are they getting everything they need? Because obviously they're not.

Stephen Phipps:

So there has to be then some supplementation. And I think parents know that, and if you look at the amount of parents that have been surveyed in some of these recent studies that we're seeing, it's around 50% of the parents that have surveyed are going to be giving their children dietary supplements on top of what they're needing. And it could be that they still eat more than chicken nuggets and there's other factors.

Stephen Phipps:

But I think there is an understanding that over the long term and not just during one cycle of a child's development, there has to be a balance of food and other nutrient sources to ensure that there is that healthy adaptation over time to becoming a well-rounded eater, to have a good relationship with the food they're eating and understand the nutrient diversity that they need to bring in, but also understand you're living in a massively different world right now where electronics, technology, fast choices, fast needs, not a lot of time, all impact that. The slow food movement is one of the hardest things I've ever tried to do just because it makes a lot of sense. It's beautiful, but it's hard to do. It's impossible sometimes. Right? So there always is that dichotomy there.

Robert Rountree:

So you've got this other situation, as you said, that kids are spending more time in front of their computer, which I think that translates into less time playing out outdoors, which means less sunlight.

Stephen Phipps:

Vitamin D.

Robert Rountree:

Yeah. They're not getting their vitamin D because they're not going outside and they're not eating their green leafy vegetables. So they're missing out on the folic acid and the vitamin K and all that good stuff. And then I think something that you and I have talked about in the past is if you have a kid sitting in front of a computer screen, doesn't that do something to your carotinoids, like being beamed with all that radiation? Doesn't that increase certain nutritional needs?

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. Right. So, I mean, I think the things that we see for blue light pressures on adult are definitely there now even more for a child. And so if you look at TV time and what people used to talk about TV time restrictions for children. Well now, just for an example, my kid's going to go into second grade, and it's time to get him his first Chromebook. And obviously too, with the struggles of COVID in different areas, like a lot of parents had to rely on online learning, whether it be through a school or through homeschooling. So there's been increased demands on those types of nutrients.

Stephen Phipps:

And you mentioned the big ones, like the minor carotenoids, like lutein, zeaxanthin, even beta carotinoids to an extent, but then you also have that neurological tract that's being really reinforced. And I think that long term thing around, what are we looking at from an omega-3 index? Also, what are we looking at around other neurological development, nutrients and neurotransmitters. So going back to the folic acid deficits from the leafy greens, it all starts to combine and those pressures are, I think, where you start to see a lot of individuals really looking at trying to understand how to best deal with that because it's going to be a struggle.

Robert Rountree:

So what do you think about kids and Cod liver oil? Is that something? I mean, that is a standard practice in Scandinavia, I think, but maybe not in this country.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. But it has vitamin A, it has vitamin D it has a lot of stuff in there. But yeah, I don't think that's going to be something that translates well because it's just not something that we bring in to our dietary base. And if you look at even some of the old movies that maybe some of the parents that are my age or stuff used to see, it was always making fun of Cod liver oil. It's disgusting. I don't want to take it. The kids run away.

Robert Rountree:

That's disgusting. The kids make a face.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that goes in back to food pressure. How do you get around that? What are we going to do? And I think that goes back to then what the marketplaces try to do for a while whether it be the first rounds of tablet chewables that were supposed to be bright colored and...

Robert Rountree:

Flintstones.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah, exactly. Right. And lots of sugar now has moved into areas like the gummy market Where it's just a different approach, but obviously bright and colorful. And but as far as...

Robert Rountree:

The same thing as breakfast cereal, all that started with the cocoa puffs and things like that. Let's basically give kids... Kids are nutritionally lacking. So what do we do? We'll give them cocoa puffs with a little B vitamin in them.

Stephen Phipps:

Right. And call it fortified fruit flavor.

Robert Rountree:

Fortified Coco puffs.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. Right. And I think that's kind of been the solutions, right? Is that, "Oh, okay, well, if we do some food fortifications, then they'll be fine." But then now you look at some of the pressures in food and that's going to be hard too. There's a lot of differences in how people are looking at food 10, 15 years ago, versus how people are looking at food now. And coming from just the socioeconomic aspects, inflation, the supply chain issues, the decline of diversity in certain areas for food where you get what they call those food deserts, it's become harder and harder to balance that out and to the point that most parents, and this may not be true, but in some areas it definitely can, but they still think that it's going to be more expensive to provide their child with a healthy diet. So then where are they going to go? And I think that's where you keep going back to, well, that's going to be where this supplementation takes hold.

Robert Rountree:

Why do you think that mainstream pediatricians are still so resistant to that idea that giving a daily multiple vitamin, which seems like just basic insurance and yet again, once the kids pass one year of life, you don't really hear anything about the value of a supplement and expensive urine, all of that stuff seems to still be out there. The data's there. I mean, I think the data's there that kids can benefit from all these things.

Stephen Phipps:

Oh, definitely. I mean, if you look at the research that's out there on single nutrients in the ranges that we would expect to see in, I would say, more of a high quality supplement for children, there's great value. But I think the problem is is that like a lot of this, the marketplace is riddled with products that promise but under-deliver. And that could be because of the nutrient type, that could be because of the way that it's placed into the matrix itself. So you may be getting a little bit of what you need, but you're getting a lot more of what you don't. And so for, I think, some of the pediatricians, it may just be one of those where it's like, well, all they see or hear about is these things that don't necessarily seem healthy.

Stephen Phipps:

But I think there's a lot that is changing especially around nutrients in their value in different areas that is going to pressure docs to really rethink some of this in a great way, which is more about, okay, when I'm looking at this and I see that there is this value in that even the FDA is making it so that the DVS are from four to an adult on a lot of these, there's going to be deficiencies, inadequate intake.

Robert Rountree:

You just mentioned a word I just want to define for our reader's, DV.

Stephen Phipps:

Oh yeah. Thank you so much.

Robert Rountree:

Yeah. DV.

Robert Rountree:

So what is that?

Stephen Phipps:

That's going to be the daily value percentage, right? So if they look at it, there's some broader, I would say, brackets within how we look at nutrient status and percentages in a daily intake that allows us to make sure that we are in range with setting at least a standard for health. Then there may be another bracket that we talk about with adequate intake. And there's another bracket that we may talk about in and around that's a little bit different. So from this, it's mainly just, if I look at a food label or a supplement label, it's going to be set to a specific targeted group.

Stephen Phipps:

So if we look at it'll be from one to three years of age, from four to adult, and then they may have a specific one for pregnant and lactating. So if I look at a prenatal you may see two different types of DVS and it might be because of what they're trying to show. So if you're pregnant and you're taking a prenatal, then you're DV percentages may be different just in slight because you're going to need more things like choline. The choline goes up a bit. A few of these other things go down a bit and so it kind of re-shifts.

Stephen Phipps:

But again, that is the way that we can at least look and see what type of value we're getting. And so if we look at some of the changes in that outside of even just choline becoming a B vitamin that now has a dietary value to it, you can go back and say, "Well, how much percentages of these things are there? And then what is that really the impact of." And some of them, you're not allowed to put on the label anymore if they're under 2%, which is good. And I think that's going to lead to a lot of positive results in how people think about nutritional supplementation and food fortification. But if they're not in that very small category, you could still be pretty low and still put it in.

Robert Rountree:

So I just want to focus on this on choline for a second before we take a break, which is that I think it's, as you mentioned, underappreciated nutrient found in eggs and dairy products and meat, things like that. So there's not a lot of non-animal products that have choline correct? So it's been underappreciated for a long time, but I actually heard a very interesting presentation by Dr. Marie Cadell. I think she might be at Cornell. And she was actually showing that giving choline prenatally, putting that in a prenatal vitamin, the effects could be measured in the infants. And the way they did it is by looking at eye movements in the kids. And they were able to show... And the eye movements were actually a way to show that there was good neurologic development. So she helped establish that choline is really important for kids' brains.

Stephen Phipps:

Yep. And I a hundred percent with that, agree with that.

Robert Rountree:

Yeah. I mean, there's some people that say, "Well, why would you need choline?" But I think it's coming front and center as far as a nutrient that really needs to be in a kid's multi.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. I agree. I think, the way I look at it right now, choline and the omega 3s, like DHEA, a as far as like the neurological support mechanisms that are there, they're becoming more and more sought out for in different areas. And I think the ability for both choline in supplementation and DHEA in supplementation to come in as vegan from algae and in synthesis allows then for this to be readily available regardless of the food or of the diet. So the ones that were really missing out on this, if there is restrictions on egg for allergies or dairy for allergies or vegan or vegetarian lifestyles that may restrict one of the others, now this really allows for that to be a foundation.

Stephen Phipps:

And I think because it didn't have the dietary value put on it until recently, I think it got missed that a lot of people didn't really think about it, which is sad because I do really think over time, we're going to see that this is a really important nutrient for that neurological development.

Robert Rountree:

And just to clarify, did you say DHA? I thought heard you say DHEA, but I think you.

Stephen Phipps:

Really hope I didn't, but I did mean DHA.

Robert Rountree:

DHA yeah. DHE is a hormone.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. We wouldn't want to be given that to kids.

Robert Rountree:

Yeah. So you're talking about the DHA that's found in omega-3 fatty acid, the fish oil or algae, and I'm guessing that you're saying that algae might be a good source, a broader group of people.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah, I do. And I think that's been one of the thing where fish oil can impact a lot of people's overall diet as far as if they're vegetarian or vegan. Some people find that it's really hard to take, much like the Cod liver oil, but a lot of the algal sources that are coming out and with a refinement and can be placed into a stable powder, you really can start to formulate with something that has less of a flavor to it, and easier to mask without a lot of exotic ingredients to read on a label.

Robert Rountree:

One thing I'll say about algae is that we're never going to run out of it.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly.

Robert Rountree:

It will be here.

Stephen Phipps:

It's everywhere.

Robert Rountree:

It will be here. If humankind doesn't last algae will.

Stephen Phipps:

Yes.

Robert Rountree:

So we never have to worry about not having a source of that.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. And that's the other thing too, right? The ecological abundance and the ways that we can also then create, in some aspects, farming out of this as well that is very pure. We have a really good control Where I think a lot of people sadly, are worried about our oceans and what may be in them. The algal DHA does allow for ability to start a bit purer so refinement doesn't as much of a need.

Robert Rountree:

Great. Well, let's take a little break. And then when we come back, we'll answer some questions from our community.

Robert Rountree:

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Robert Rountree:

And we're back. Now, it's time to answer some questions from the community. Our first question this week comes from a listener who ask, could you please make a kid's multi? And then there's one right after that said, could you please make it chewable for little kids? And then they've actually said in parentheses, is there any difference between making a pill or making a gummy or a chewable or something like that? So it seems like those are all loaded questions for you, Steven.

Stephen Phipps:

They are and ones that we've been thinking about now for a few years. So actually started a project about two years ago when we started to really look at the print style of formulation where we actually are now going to be coming out with our own children multivitamin.

Robert Rountree:

What do you mean by print, Steven?

Stephen Phipps:

So what we do is actually make kind of like a fortified ink and then use a stencil to make a dissolvable disc that is pretty much embedded with all of the nutrients that we have in there.

Robert Rountree:

Edible ink, you mean. Edible ink.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. Edible ink. Of course, of course. And when I say ink, it's more of just a substrate that we can lay down. So if we look at the inactives, they're going to be mainly things like oat fiber, gluten free, of course, and the like because we're looking to make sure that those are inner and a bit more on the healthier side.

Robert Rountree:

So you got a 3D printer that prints with oat.

Stephen Phipps:

Actually it's just the beauty of it is, it's 2d. And the reason why for it being 2d versus 3D is that we can go a little faster, and we can be a little bit more creative on our form factor. It's relatively inexpensive. And so that translates into the end user. So instead of trying to buy the technology, we can really focus on then the quality of the nutrients we're putting in. And I think that's been really interesting and fun. And so with this, we're definitely excited to roll it out. And I think it'll be something that will be fun for parents to give to their kids. And one thing that I've been doing obviously with my kids is we've been developing this over time. And unfortunately for them, they've been part of the R and D process.

Robert Rountree:

Let's see if Mikey likes it. Does Mikey like it?

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly! Yep. Mikey likes it. But what came from it, though, was interesting, is that they enjoyed being able to decide what they want to do with it. And so with the disc dissolving, it can go into water, it goes into yogurt, it goes into oatmeal and a few other things pretty easily. And so that was the thing that got them excited about it. So it let them kind of feel like they were deciding their own choose your healthy adventure type of thing. And so that's been really nice. And so because of that it's flavored, but it's not going to be a very dominant flavor so that can be imparted in different areas or different food stuffs to make sure that there could be options.

Robert Rountree:

And your kids will drink it.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. And one of them is the chicken nugget person. So as a naturopathic doctor, the chicken nugget person, we're working on her, I love her. She's amazing. And she's getting there, right? Obviously not pressuring, but she's moved to salmon. Yeah. Instead of chicken nuggets and she's moved to a few other things. So we're getting there.

Robert Rountree:

Yeah. And I assume this supplement for our listeners, it's got all the usual suspect, shall we say all the things you'd expect.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. It's got all the good stuff that I would say is, especially on the picker eater side, harder to get into. And also some of the things we talked about in our discussion around choline, DHA, really going and reinforcing some of that. So outside of that, we definitely have placed in a B vitamin complex that are active B vitamins, a vitamin K source because again, green leafy vegetables are hard to get in along that green leafy vegetable side. We've got magnesium sources that are chelated and then vitamin A, zinc, vitamin D3 in a good amount for immune support.

Stephen Phipps:

So trying to make a well-rounded nutrient platform for, I would say, ages four to 12 where they're going to start transitioning into a more adult-style nutrient, but we can do that again because of the way that DVS are done. We're doing four to adult is kind of getting our sense of what's needed and really focusing in on that.

Robert Rountree:

Well, that kind of rolls us into the next question. And by the way, it sounds like a really great product. And I've certainly been looking for a sugar free children's supplement to use in my practice for many years. And they're hard to come by almost everything out there just loaded with sugar and food dyes and all kinds of things that are not desirable.

Stephen Phipps:

It really is. And that, as a practitioner and also now as a parent, it has been hard. I look at every back panel as hard as I can to find stuff, and it is really hard to wade through.

Robert Rountree:

Well, the next question is kind of a natural segue, which is, should I focus on multivitamins for my children or should it be a food first approach? And we've kind of touched on that, but I wonder if you could elaborate a little bit about how the two things fit together.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. And in my personal view of it, I think focusing on food is great as a great foundation. And then looking at where things are missing, there's going to be things that kids are going to have a hard time eating or want to eat, could be for texture, taste, the like. And so that's really where your supplementation comes in. But again, over time we're hoping that they first become healthy adult eaters, right? They spend time understanding what they're eating, making good decisions and then utilizing things to help with the deficits that they need.

Stephen Phipps:

But it can be really hard to think about the amount of supplements one would still need to take if they were to go after nothing but fast food cheeseburgers and shakes, right? It's nutrients and calories, but it's inflammatory. And it's got a lot of things that are negative about it, right? So really we want to get that habitual want of a good diverse diet and then help support that with supplementation.

Robert Rountree:

I think the key word here that you've said several times is supplement, that supplements are supplements, right? So supplements are meant to enhance a decent diet. I also think if you look at what's going on in our society, you've got a lot of overweight kids. You've got a lot of kids who are pre-diabetic or maybe full blown type two diabetics, and you never saw that before, not in an eight year old, or a 10 year old that this is something new.

Robert Rountree:

And then the other scenario is that if you test for it, you will find environmental toxins in kids. You will find endocrine disrupting compounds. That was a study done in Europe recently where they were having to do spinal taps on kids for some other reason, and they measured neonicotinoids, which are these chemicals pesticides that are embedded in plants. They're inside the seeds and they grow inside the plants. And they're saying these things are everywhere, the forever chemicals, the EDCs. And I think that they deplete you of nutrients. So even if the kids are eating well, they still have this increased need for something to help them counteract the effect of these toxins.

Stephen Phipps:

Oh yeah, no, I totally agree. I mean, if you look at just the amount of intrinsic antioxidant support that's needed with some of that, they're going to need all kinds of stuff, amino acids, things that drive [inaudible 00:32:32] production, balancing out the immune system and how we can do that through probiotics and the like. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that goes into that, but I think some of this then goes to, if you start putting on the flame to the fire and adding more with some of the standard American diet choices out there, then you now have even more inflammatory reactions and even more cross discussions with cytokines and chemokines and your adipose tissue that's driving some of this even farther. So I think again, that's where that food piece really becomes important to found nationalized and supplement as you said.

Robert Rountree:

So you mentioned the word probiotic earlier and then just now. Do you think an argument could be made for giving a probiotic to most kids? Do you give probiotics to your kids or do you give them yogurt, or what do you do?

Stephen Phipps:

I do a little bit of it all and also prebiotics. So if I'm looking at it and it may be that I give them some healthy fibers, I give them some of these new, more complex carbohydrates, but also fruits and veggies. And if I can't, I'll look for some polyphenolic extracts out of berries or fruits that really help diversify the GI tract. I think one of the biggest mucus formers like akkermansia, which is really cool species, it can metabolize things like cranberry polyphenols and use that to grow and develop and then further benefit the barrier of the GI tract.

Robert Rountree:

Mucus formulas. That's a good thing. Mucus formulas, right?

Stephen Phipps:

Right, right.

Robert Rountree:

Mucus formers, I'm sorry.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. Because again, it's kind of keeping that environmental barrier pull as we start to get the onslaught of our environmental impacts. So I do think that there is room for probiotic support in children over time. And the thing that may change is which ones and what types. I think as we start to understand the nuances of the ecosystem in the GI tract, I think that's where this will tease out, and we've already seen it with the prebiotic discussion. I think one of the most interesting things to see is things like omega 3 fatty acids being now categorized as prebiotics because of butyrate synthesis. So it can be used to create butyrate in the GI tract. So what we used to always think about with fiber is now a plethora of things that our body's using to really benefit that whole biome.

Robert Rountree:

So prebiotic is really anything that works as a fertilizer or a nutrient that helps healthy bacteria grow in your gut.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. Right. And the way I look at it, some of them are selective, like some of the polyphenols and some of them are broad spectrum. So if I'm looking at it from a fertilizer analogy, my 15/15/15, everything's going to love it. It's going to grow. It's going to be happy. So I think that's kind of where the nuances are starting to come out in the GI space.

Robert Rountree:

Now, I have to say, one of my favorite probiotics, is that kind of a long name, but it's lactobacillus plantarum, and I you'll have to remind me, but I think that Thorne has got a product that actually is designed for kids or easy for for kids to take that has that particular probiotic in it.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. It's a little microsphere. So it's really easy to take. It's not a capsule and it is an LP strain that's got some good research around it.

Robert Rountree:

Yeah. So that plantarum kind of implies where it came from, right?

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Makes life easy. Sometimes that Latin translates well, huh?

Robert Rountree:

Yeah. Sometimes it comes through.

Stephen Phipps:

Because a lot of times it doesn't.

Robert Rountree:

Yeah. So that's a good choice if parents want to use a probiotic for their kids.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly.

Robert Rountree:

Right, right. Wasn't intending to get too far off track there, but gut health is important, in other words.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. It's hard not to. I mean, the gut is a diverse and amazing thing when we talk about how we deal with things in our environment, in our nutrient intake. So I'll close that rabbit hole though. And I think we may have a few more questions, right?

Robert Rountree:

Yep. Yeah, we do. So you had said that the supplement that you came up with, this disc designed for kids four to 12, at what age do you typically want to start giving kids a multivitamin every day?

Stephen Phipps:

I think that's probably about the time. I mean, there is stuff out there that's for one and three year olds and I think that can be fine as an approach, but you also may find that more selectivity is needed. So something in that area that has a nice iron source that's not going to be hard on the GI track is something that, in that age group, as you're transitioning into foods and trying to diversify it more through the three year old spot, you typically see some anemias that may pop up. And so you're really wanting to make sure that there's some other selective nutrient support there. So I think things like a probiotic, things like some vitamin D and things like iron really make a lot of sense in that group versus more of a general multivitamin.

Robert Rountree:

And then the segue from that is a person who asks, well, how much of the vitamins that you take are absorbed? And they said, part B of that is I don't want my kids to overdose. Should I worry about my kids overdosing? I think is what they're asking.

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. And so there's a couple of things that can happen with that, how much of vitamins are absorbed. And one of them comes from, there's an acronym in pharmacokinetics, which is kind of studying the way that things get into the body. And a lot of times that's drugs, but we can still use this for nutrients and there is absorption, but distribution, and those two things are important. But I think one that gets into a few textbooks here and there that makes a lot of sense is liberation. And so I say that because you have to get it out of the matrix to make it into your body. And it has to leave that area of the matrix far enough to get absorbed.

Robert Rountree:

So the vitamins in a ball of shellac, for example...

Stephen Phipps:

Yeah. Exactly.

Robert Rountree:

It's going to stay in the shellac and it's going to end up in the toilet.

Stephen Phipps:

Right. It is. And that's kind of, I think, where they have all the x-ray pictures of different supplements staying in the transit has come from, is that liberation part. And so within that kind of area then of the DB, every one of those nutrients is going to absorb a little bit differently, and it's going to be interacting with other nutrients in the system. So we think about, a great example is what we would call the two plus minerals. So that two plus mineral class is things like zinc, magnesium, obviously iron can be in there, calcium.

Stephen Phipps:

And so there's only one way to get those in, right? So you kind of got to make sure that when you're supplementing those out, you're not pushing one to the amp on 11 for how much you're putting in the formula and the other one's just a little bit because it's going to [inaudible 00:39:15]. And so you kind of got to have a little bit of a well-rounded approach in there, but the B vitamins, not a problem absorbing those. And obviously, one of them lets you know it really quick after you go to the bathroom by being yellow urine because it's already made it through the system.

Stephen Phipps:

And then for the overdose piece, there's really good information, if parents or anybody hasn't seen it, in what they call the Office of Dietary Supplements or ODS. It breaks it down by age group, and it says here is how much we think should be taken in. Here's kind of the range that can happen. Here's why people might take it. And the other part to that is here's what we would say is the tolerable upper limit, which is kind of the max point of you shouldn't really be going over this as a non-selective nutrient support.

Stephen Phipps:

So we may go over that say in certain areas where we're wanting to really have that as a very selective nutrient support system. So things like, obviously, the tetrahydrofolates may go over what they would consider to be that from a dietary because we can pulse that and bring it back down. But for general use in multivitamins, I think that's a good place to look at and understand.

Robert Rountree:

So in other words, we've actually got a term, an acronym, the upper limit or the tolerable upper limit, the TUL that you can just look up that the government publishes that. And as long as you're below that tolerable upper limit, you'll be fine. You don't really need to worry about overdosing or any kind of toxicity.

Stephen Phipps:

Exactly. And then those nutrients that may go above that in certain formulations, that's still one of those where that's going to be things that you a provider would be looking at with you to make sure that we're going to push this higher, but there's a reason for it. And they're still considered safe, but not to kind of use on your own.

Robert Rountree:

Well, that's been an awesome discussion, Steven. All right, folks, that's all the time we have this week. Steven, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. If people want to know what you're up to in particular, or maybe more about product development or what's coming out, where can people go to follow you?

Stephen Phipps:

So I am on LinkedIn and also you can always look Thorne.com for new product launches and the like and see the work that's coming out from my group. And I think there's a lot coming out in the next few months that is going to be really exciting for everybody. More to come there. And then you may see a blog pop up every once in a while from me as well. So I'm looking forward to being able to communicate more with everybody. And thanks again, Dr. Rountree, for you for your time.

Robert Rountree:

You bet. Terrific. So, excellent. That was Dr. Steven Phipps Who's the chief innovation officer at Thorne Health Tech. As always, thank you all for listening, and we hope that you can tune in again in the future.

Robert Rountree:

Thanks for listening to the Thorne podcast. Make sure to never miss an episode by subscribing to the show on your podcast app of choice. If you've got a health or wellness question you'd like answered, simply follow our Instagram and shoot a message to @ThorneHealth. You can also learn more about the topics we discussed by visiting Thorne.com and checking out the latest news videos and stories on Thorne's Take Five Daily blog. Once again, thanks for tuning in and don't forget to join us next time for another episode of the Thorne podcast.