Adaptogens, Revisited: Benefits of Ginseng

Dr. Robert Rountree:

This is The Thorne Podcast, the show that navigates the complex world of wellness and explores the latest science behind diet, supplements, and lifestyle approaches to good health. I'm Dr. Robert Rountree, Chief Medical Advisor at Thorne and functional medicine doctor. As a reminder, the recommendations made in this podcast are the recommendations of the individuals who express them and not the recommendations of Thorne. Statements in this podcast have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any products mentioned are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

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Hi, everyone, and welcome to The Thorne Podcast. We're really glad you're here and are excited to talk about some fascinating wellness topics for you today. Once again, I'm joined by friend of the pod and Thorne Vice President of Medical Affairs, Dr. Amanda Frick. Amanda, how are you, and what's going on?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I'm very well. Thank you. We are excited for some product development phases that are happening right now, and we'll look forward to future pods to talk about those.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Well, my big news is I went to Ireland not too long ago and had a chance to lecture to some health-care providers over there, and I got to say, I was amazed at the knowledge of the nutritionists that I met. I don't know exactly where they're going to get their training, but boy, they've really got some sharp folks over there that know a lot about diet, nutrition, lifestyle, and everything. So that was an exciting thing for me.

So let's get into the main topic for this week. It's adaptogens. And we've talked about this before, but we continue to get questions about it. It's really a popular topic. So we thought we'd do a little revisitation on this. So, Amanda, can you remind listeners what adaptogens are exactly?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Sure. Adaptogen is any kind of compound that helps your body adapt to stress. Often associated with immune function, but I think most generally, people are thinking about adaptogens for stress management.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Where did this concept come from? I seem to vaguely recall that maybe the research started in Siberia, people that lived in very harsh environments, although adaptogens are really used in cultures all over the world, right?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yes. Ancient medicine and ancient, well, ancient botanical practices from Western, Eastern, and other traditional medicine practices.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So would it be fair to say that pretty much any indigenous culture has got their own favored adaptogenic herb or herbs? Is this something that you see all over the world?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think that that's probably safe to say.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So these things have been around for a long time. That's really what I'm getting at, is this isn't something that somebody just discovered and just started talking about. This concept has really been with us really since ancient times.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. Definitely not new, although I do think it's getting some more social attention or has come into focus, and people are sort of reclaiming the word in recent years.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Any speculation on why adaptogens are so popular? Now, that's kind of a leading question, but does it have anything to do with our current society or what's going on in the world?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think, I may have no idea. So you're just asking me for opinion. So I'm just going to fly here. One thing, I think, is probably COVID. I mean, the world is different since COVID, and I think people took a really hard look at how their lives are affected and were able to focus more on their own stress management. So I think that's part of it. Less intriguing would be that some pretty big-name celebrities have come out with adaptogen products recently. And so, anytime, you can get a hot topic on TikTok or other forms of social media, then more people are going to know what it is. So I will thank them for that, if nothing else.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So a lot of influencers are suddenly talking about it, although you and I, I think, have probably been using adaptogens for most of our careers. But suddenly, there's been a resurgence of discussion and talk about it.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Probably been using them before our career so that we could survive the education to be in our careers, is my guess. We've been using adaptogens for a minute.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. So do you have a favorite adaptogen, or I can put a plural on that? Do you have more than one that you particularly like?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I have a few favorites. Just, I think it depends on what you're using them for. So I have favorites, like categorical favorites, or things that I would use them for differently.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Mm-hmm. Well, let's say somebody who's generally healthy but feels like they could use a little more energy or a little bit more focus in the day. What would you say is a good choice for them or a good set of choices?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Ginseng is one of my favorites for that, which we did talk about already before, but I just love that herb, partly because of that energetic aspect. That's why I think it's such a neat herb. And also, from a Chinese medicine perspective, it's such a potent and powerful herb and used for so many things. So I just have a little more love for it for that reason.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Now, there are a lot of different kinds of ginsengs, right? And I bring to that a little perspective in that I remember in college, I had a buddy back in North Carolina that would disappear into the mountain forest for days on end looking for what they called sang, S-A-N-G, which was the American ginseng. The Panax, I think, is quinquefolium [sic]? So tell me about the different ginsengs that are out there and what the therapeutic differences are.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So there's really Asian ginseng and American ginseng. So like you said, it's Panax quinquefolius. I don't even know if I'm saying it right.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

I don't know how to pronounce it. I haven't known for 40 years. Yeah.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

And Panax ginseng, which is what we would consider Asian ginseng, but really commonly Korean ginseng. They have different uses, and the American ginseng is, I would say, less stimulating or less energetic. From a TCM perspective, it's not as “hot” as Panax ginseng from a temperature, energetic standpoint, but they definitely do little. I would say American ginseng, I would think of as more balancing, and Panax ginseng, more restorative.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Mm-hmm. Have they actually done studies where they compared constituents, or is that not something we really have a lot of data on?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I'm not sure about that. I would have to look into that.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Huh. Huh. So you mentioned Korean ginseng. Is there a difference between Korean and Chinese? I get the impression that Korea is really the world epicenter for Panax ginseng.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I am not familiar with the term Chinese ginseng, so I'm not sure about that.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Well, yeah, I'm just talking about the ginseng they sell in China.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Oh, oh, oh.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. I've been to herb shops in China, and I remember seeing ginseng roots there, but it was all in Mandarin, and I couldn't tell you where they were sourced. What I do remember is seeing these roots in a box in a display case that would sometimes cost $1,000 in U.S. American dollars. $1,000 for one root.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think that was a cheap one. You can get them way more expensive than that.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Wow. So why are they so expensive? What's the deal?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Well, for the really expensive ones, it's about how old they are. And so, as the root ages, the compounds in the herb, it's... So along with how old it is, but also how it's been processed is what determines a ginseng grade. And so, those really expensive ones are really old roots, and then they've also been properly processed. So that's what that is about.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

OK. But does that necessarily mean you've got to pay thousands of dollars to get something that's going to be helpful for your health? Did you say, "I want to take ginseng"? Do you have to fly to Shanghai and buy a $5,000 root to get those benefits? I mean, hopefully not. But, I mean, what's your thought on that?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

No. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. To each their own in whatever you enjoy doing. I'm not going to say you can't.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

But no, you certainly don't have to make that kind of investment. And thankfully, we have ways to sort of reap the benefits of what a really old ginseng root can offer without having the actual age of the ginseng root.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Well, that's encouraging. I mean, I have to admit, years ago, somebody gave me a fairly pricey root. I don't know exactly how much it was, but I brought it home, and I was afraid to use it, because I'm like, "This is so expensive. I don't want to touch it." So obviously, if we're talking about adaptogens for public use, we're not telling people, "You've got to go out there and get the most expensive one you can find." Correct?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Correct.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. Yeah. So can we talk a little bit about sustainability? Because I mentioned I had this friend that would go out in the woods for days on end and come back with a handful of roots, and then sell them at a market. The ginseng products on the market now, are they wildcrafted? I mean, are they mostly things that people go out and dig up in the woods, or are they more cultivated or grown, say, in an indoor farm or something like that?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think that that's probably two different answers and, also, a different way that we're thinking about it. To me, ginseng is probably mostly cultivated, because you would standardize the extract to a certain compound or percentage of ginsenosides, and that's more difficult to do in a wildcraft scenario. So I think for ginseng, it's probably mostly cultivated and not wildcrafted.

I also think there's a lot of change in discussion. Wildcrafted used to be the gold standard, or that's what you would want, or when you're making a botanical formulation, those are the herbs that you would choose, because it was “better,” or we thought of it as “better.” And in some ways, it probably was as far as what the herb was offering, and then depending on how much you're getting into energetics of the plant compounds and where they're coming from.

But from a sustainability standpoint, it doesn't make a lot of sense. We are also a mass-market culture, and you can't go foraging around for enough stuff in the woods to produce 50,000 bottles of something. So probably not happening so much. Also, we're just getting better from all aspects of agriculture to be able to produce botanicals in a better way for the environment and not have to have them be wildcrafted. So controlling the content of the herbs, controlling how they're grown without having so much environmental impact, lower water use, things like that.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So here's the question I've been asked. If a product is grown, say, hydroponically in a special mix of soil, and I know this is pretty much always true for medicinal fungi, but for herbs like ginseng, is it possible to do this indoors in a way that's clean? And by clean, I mean, they don't add any pesticides or undesired chemicals, things like that. Is that kind of the way it's going?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think it's at least the way it's starting. And so, the answer to the first question is yes. They can definitely be grown indoors and in a controlled environment. In fact, that's how we're sourcing ginseng for our newest product. But also, not only can you control how it's grown from an environmental standpoint, you're also... They're calling it biomimetic farming.

So you can modify the way and the growing conditions, the water, to mimic aging in the root so that it only takes a short amount of time to produce root that has the compounds of a 25-year-old ginseng root. And so, not only is it just about environment, it's also about getting a better-quality herb and a better consumer experience and patient experience, because the herb has more active compounds in it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So you're saying this biomimetic indoor farming may actually produce a better-quality herb than what you might get if you went out and foraged around in the mountains and dug up some roots, or even went to a farm where these plants have been cultivated?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think it's most likely that it's going to be better, unless you got really lucky and found some 25-year-old root in the ground in the forest, then you're really good at this, and probably you should sell that and not try to make some kind of tincture out of it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. So things like ginseng, other adaptogens, are they substances that you can take for long periods of time, or do you just take them... Say if you're a college student, you just take them during exams or during a stressful time, or can you take them indefinitely? I think we got asked that the last time we did this podcast, and I just wanted to clarify that.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

My answer would be both. So I think you can definitely take adaptogens indefinitely. Probably a lot of people would need to take adaptogens on a regular basis, depending on your lifestyle or the stress levels in your life. Not all types of adaptogens would be great to take long-term because of what they're doing, and maybe they're not great at certain times of day. But that's what I love about stress-balancing products. Yeah. Well, first of all, because I'm biased because they're botanical anyway, and I love botanicals.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

They're not drugs.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

They're not, and there are so many different ways you can use them. It's not like hitting something with a bat. You can get it to work the way you want. You can gently nudge. You can energize. You can help relax. There's just so many different ways to use them. So you can personalize in what you need for your stress response.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Not long ago, I read a critique or supposed critique of the adaptogen concept, and the professor, I think it was at McGill or someplace, was saying, "Well, the reason that we don't believe in adaptogens is because they're not drugs." Right? So it was very circular reasoning. The whole notion was, "Well, a drug, we know exactly what's in it, how many milligrams, and we know what pathway it inhibits or supports, and that's the definition of something that's a good intervention. And adaptogens, because they're so vague in what they do, if you're amped up, then they can calm you down, or if you're depleted, then they can restore you."

And this person was saying, "Well, that alone is evidence that this is a nonsensical concept," which I thought was hilarious, to be honest, as a critique, because I think what people like you and I would say is that that's exactly what we're looking for, is something that you can take for a long period of time, that's not a stimulant, that's not like an immune suppressant, etc. Instead, it simply supports physiology. And, I mean, is that a legitimate concept that you can support physiology, but do it in a very general way? I mean-

Dr. Amanda Frick:

The fact that someone was having that conversation or made that argument is just really entertaining.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. Entertaining, right? It's like, "It's not a drug. Therefore, how can it be real?"

Dr. Amanda Frick:

It's so reductive, too, and just doesn't take any kind of human factor into account. So yeah, we have drugs. They work really well, and we know what pathways they work on. We know exactly how much is in them. They're definitely working, but we'll tell you what they'll do to you or what the possible side effects are in 25 years. But it's cool. It's fine. They work. Don't worry about it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

You can say, "Hey, well, here's somebody with osteoporosis. I can give you this drug that mimics parathyroid hormone," and "Hey, it might give you a cancer of the bone called osteosarcoma, but you don't mind."

Dr. Amanda Frick:

"It's cool."

Dr. Robert Rountree:

"It's cool. You don't have to worry about it." So do we really see side effects from adaptogens like ginseng? I mean, is that possible or common, or what?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I mean, I think a side effect is always possible, because people are individual and sensitive. We have customers that feel like they can feel a vitamin D. So I wouldn't dismiss that anyone could have a side effect from anything, especially a botanical, because in my mind, they're botanical medicine. So they're changing physiology or changing biochemistry in your body.

So I don't think a side effect is ever impossible, though I do feel like they're much less likely. And then, like we talked about, because adaptogens can have different functions, you could certainly be choosing the wrong one for your needs and sort of pushing or nudging your body in the wrong direction. So knowing what you're taking and choosing something that's right for you is the most important part.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Well, and do people need supervision from a health-care provider to take these, or are they safe enough that a person can decide for themselves?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think they are safe enough that a person can decide for themselves. And when I'm talking about side effects, I'm not talking about anything serious. Most common side effects from dietary supplements are digestive upset, headache, skin complaints. It's not like making the wrong selection is going to have deleterious health effects.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Right. And that's more of an individual reaction than it is something to do with the formula itself. That's what you're saying.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. Exactly.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

People can just have these unique reactions just because we're human beings.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. Thankfully, we're all different. That's the beauty of it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

That's the beauty.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So I would expect that not everyone reacts to it the same.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Now, how long would a person typically need to take something like ginseng before they'd feel anything? Does it take place in minute, hours, days, weeks, months, year? I mean, what's the typical time frame based on the research that we know about it? So a usual study where they give it to somebody, where they say, "OK, we did a follow-up after people were taking it for a week or a month." What's typical?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think there's not necessarily a typical… For me, botanicals work gently and take some time to work as a general statement, but we do have studies to support the ginseng that we would utilize in formulation to have immediate effects. So it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. So to me, ginseng is an adaptogen that you can feel when you take it. We have clinical studies to support elevated focus at time of taking it. So it's doing something for you as you're taking it. And then after five days, your body is building stress resilience by continuing to use ginseng. And then within two weeks, you can have changes in memory during stressful periods.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Oh, wow.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So the aspects can be felt when you take it, but then the long-term support or benefits are growing the longer you continue to take it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Well, let's say you're an athlete, or let me not even say an athlete. Let's just say I want to go out and climb a mountain, which is something we do in Colorado. Right? It's a good day. The weather's good. Let's go climb a mountain. So if you take ginseng in the morning, is it possible that it would make climbing that mountain a little easier? If it works within hours, I mean, is it possible I would notice that?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

We can substantiate it works within hours for focus. So from your mental game for your mountain climb, I think that you could expect support. I could not speak to whether it would help with your physical endurance on the day that you take it.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So there's pretty good data on cognitive support, is what you're saying?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yes. There's good data on cognitive support, good data on how it impacts stress resilience and reaction to stress. And then when stress is affecting memory and performance, then there's data on that too.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Well, I wouldn't downplay the importance of cognitive support when climbing a mountain because –

Dr. Amanda Frick:

No.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

– I could tell you, three, four hours into the hike, it's not uncommon to go, "Why am I doing this? I think I'm going to turn around." So if you've got more of a sense of stronger will, focus, if your brain's working, you're more likely to achieve the goal, I think.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I mean, people forget too. We think about stress, but adaptogens affect mood. So maybe you'll have a smile on your face on the mountain.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Oh, yeah. I'll be a little happier.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

That's important too. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So one last question, and then we're going to take a break. The question, I don't know if it's a big or small question, but what about synergistic effect between different adaptogens? So if a person says, "I feel like I need something to give me a little more cognitive support," are they better off just taking ginseng, or is combining the ginseng with other things... What's the pros and cons of doing that?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Pros could be... I mean, this is real old-school botanical prescribing methodology, but you can – well, and Eastern medicine – you could add synergistic effects by channel direction. So if you really were working on cognitive benefit, you could add herbs that would enhance brain support or would direct to the channels that would affect the brain in Chinese medicine, or you could make a mistake by combining them that have opposite effects.

So we talked about some adaptogens being more calming or relaxing and other adaptogens being more stimulating or energizing. If you put too many of them from different categories together, you could make a mistake if you were doing a DIY. But I'm sure careful formulators who are putting herbs together in a formula are taking that into account. So in a formulation at Thorne, we would consider synergistic effects and make sure we're carefully selecting botanicals that work together so they're not canceling each other out.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So it's almost like two different worldviews here, because I know in Western botanical medicine, people tend to favor singles, and then comparing, adding different singles, building a formula, whereas I see an acupuncturist, and she would never give you a single herb. Right? That's just not the way they think.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Probably not so much the way they think. Not impossible that they could give you a single herb.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Not impossible, but a little less common to see a Chinese herbal formula, a TCM formula that doesn't have several things in it.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think that that's probably a traditional use difference. So TCM botanical prescribing is almost based on patent formulas. The ancient use of them also means they have ancient formulas put together. And when you're learning Western botanical medicine, or at least the way I learned it, we didn't learn them as formulas. We learned them as individual herbs.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

As individuals. So you can really go either way depending on your needs.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. Exactly.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Cool. OK. So now, we need to take a short break, and when we get back, we will take some questions from our audience and go into a little more detail.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Sounds good.

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And we're back. So now it's time to answer some questions from the community. Our first question this week comes from a listener who asks, "Is there anyone who should not take adaptogens? Should I consult my doctor before adding them to my routine?"

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So in general, I think it's great to discuss taking new supplements with your doctor, especially if you're taking medications, and making sure there's not drug-herb interactions or drug-nutrient interactions. While I think adaptogens are generally safe, and most people can probably take one without supervision, if you're taking medication, it's always best to check with your doctor.

Some population should consider not using an adaptogen. To me, that is pregnant women, nursing women, mostly because we just don't have great data about the use of botanicals in those populations. But because you're forcing your body to adapt and change the way it's responding to stress, it's adapting your immune system, those are things you probably don't want to be doing in a forceful way when you're pregnant or trying to conceive.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

The one thing I might add to that is two scenarios. One is if a person has a health condition that's unstable, like if they have a problem with keeping their blood pressure under control, and they haven't quite come on a regimen that works yet. It can be a little tricky to add anything else without supervision. And the other one is if a person's got some concerning symptoms, if they're extremely fatigued. They should probably have a medical investigation first instead of saying, "Well, I'll just take an herbal product and hope that it helps." So I'm just advocating for at least getting a workup from your naturopath or your MD or whoever you see before immediately saying, "Well, I'm going to go to an herb or a supplement."

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. I think that's particularly true if it's a long-standing symptom or something that's been going on for a while.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. Just to make sure there's not something that should be treated.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Exactly. I mean, you could be tired because you need iron.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. Exactly. My exact point. Second question, "Can taking adaptogens impact sleep?" So should most people avoid taking them late in the day? Do they keep people awake in general, or is that an individual thing?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So that's a dual question. To me, in general, it doesn't exist, because we already talked about some of them being more relaxing and some of them being more energizing. So as a category, I think the adaptogen part depends on the herb and depends on the individual. And so, if you're using a formula that's meant to be energizing, or you're using a formula that's meant to help you get through the day, or you think it's going to be a more stimulating botanical compound, I would avoid taking them later in the day, especially if you're sensitive. But then other adaptogens, we talked about this last time, like amino acids can be adaptogens, they could help blunt cortisol response before bed, and you'd want to take them at night.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And you want to take them at night. Yeah.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Depends on what you're taking it for, and depends on what herbs or compounds are in the formula.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So something like ginseng, maybe the prudent thing to do, at least initially, is to take them earlier in the day, although I would point out ginseng is not a stimulant. That's the whole idea of an adaptogen. It's not a stimulant. But some people, if they take it and it wakes them up, and they feel more energized, they may experience that as difficulty going to sleep.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. And we know that it's helping with mental clarity and increasing blood flow to the brain. And depending on how your brain works, my brain does not need blood flow or clarity when I'm trying to go to sleep. And so, I would take mine early.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. You want less clarity at night.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I'm also kind of old school, and I like biphasic hormone prescribing. I like biphasic adrenal prescribing. I would use a ginseng formula in the a.m. and, as needed, a different formula in the p.m.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So do adaptogens work well alongside other stress-relief practices like mindfulness, exercise, or physical exercise? How can they complement a larger wellness routine?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So I think that somebody should fire us if we said people should not practice mindfulness or exercise. And so, someone's cheating. [Laughs]

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Out the door with those people.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Get out of here.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So it's like, you can't out-exercise a bad diet. You can't out-herb bad sleep. You can't out-herb or out-adaptogen not exercising or taking care of your body. So I think they're perfect complements. In defense of the formula, I would say it takes a long time to feel like... You can get an exercise boost or feel energetic from exercise. Some people feel tired, but it takes a long time for practicing mindfulness and having a regular routine to sort of have the stress-reducing effects of those practices.

And so, I feel like they bridge a gap really well when you could take an adaptogen formula that's sort of helping boost your lifestyle practices and balance you all around, but you're probably going to feel a little more relief from a formula right away than you would from meditating this afternoon.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So to that end, I see a question that actually relates directly to this, which is, "How do adaptogens interact with the body's hormones, especially cortisol?"

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Depends on the adaptogen. Some of them may have direct effects on cortisol depending on the herb. So we know some herbs will help blunt high cortisol. We know that some herbs will help promote cortisol production, but that's not always what you want. But they're working with other hormones, too, other neurotransmitters, other methods. Would every adaptogen have to affect cortisol? I think if you made me decide right now, I would say no. I think a lot of them do, but they don't have to.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So what about something like ginseng? Do we know what ginseng does to cortisol?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think the jury is a little bit out. I would not want to overreach my statements on that.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

OK. If we're being evidence-based here.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yes. If we are being evidence-based, I would say you would use ginseng, likely, when you have lower cortisol levels, because that's when you're going to be experiencing things like fatigue or difficulty focus or low energy, low motivation, and then ginseng becomes a perfect supportive herb for those situations.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

OK. Well, that segues into the next question. "I've heard ginseng can boost energy. So is ginseng better for mental clarity, or is it better for physical stamina?"

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think it depends on who you are and how your body reacts. I think there's data to suggest that both things can be affected. Anytime that you're overstressed, your body's resilience is going down, so you're going to have physical effects and mental effects. I think we talked about this a little bit before. Those mental clarity, focus are things you're going to be able to experience a little sooner when starting a new adaptogen. And some of those physical effects or resilience, endurance, they'll take more time to recover.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So we touched on this earlier, but a person asked, "Does Thorne have an adaptogen product or specifically a ginseng product?"

Dr. Amanda Frick:

We do, and it's brand new and shiny. We just released a product called Ginseng Plus, which contains Panax red ginseng and Greek mountain tea, as well as lion's mane. So you're getting that synergistic effect that we talked about before, for blood flow to the brain, cognition effects, stress resilience, and it's one of my favorite products we've come out with in a really long time.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. It sounds great. I can't wait to try it. People are asking, "Are there different types of ginseng?" So maybe you can go over that. "And if so, do those ginsengs offer different benefit?" And specifically, they said, "If Thorne has a ginseng, what one does Thorne use?"

Dr. Amanda Frick:

There are different types of ginseng from a species standpoint. So we talked about this a little, Panax ginseng, American ginseng. There are also other herbs that are not exactly ginseng, but they're called ginseng by common name. So there are different types.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Eleutherococcus.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yup. Exactly. Eleutherococcus. I love Eleutherococcus, but it's not ginseng.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

It's not ginseng.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

And then once you get into Panax ginseng, then there are different types. There's wild, fresh, and then there's these color grades called white, red, and then there's cooked ginseng, which is black. But the red ginseng has cooked, and then it has to be a certain age, and it has higher compounds. And so, the ginseng utilized in Thorne's Ginseng Plus formula is a red ginseng.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So that tells you a little something about not only the species, but how it's processed.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yup, how it's processed, the amount of ginsenosides, which are those rare and the good compounds in the herb that are doing all the work. So when you're using a standardized extract, like we are in our formula, then you know how much of those ginsenosides are in there. You have targeted uses for them, whereas some full-spectrum ginseng or whole-plant ginseng is going to be – I'm sorry, whole-root – would still have great use and more of a traditional use, but you're less able, especially in evidence-based medicine, to be able to say what it's doing, because you can't put it together directly with the compounds in the herb.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

So I see two questions that are really related to each other. I'm going to see if I can summarize it. "How long do you have to take them to see a difference in stress or energy? Are they meant for short-term use, or are they mostly meant for long-term use?" And then the next question that's basically a variant on that is, "Should I cycle them, or do I take them continuously?" So what's the best way to use something like ginseng? Short-, long-term, cycle? How do you do it?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

So to me, it's a mixed answer. The first part of it was, how long does it take. Some effects you can feel when you take it. And then I think that those memory responses and stress resilience things take a little longer, like a week or two, before you're starting to see a difference. And then taking it over time, you're helping to build your resilience, so stress is impacting you less.

So you could take it when you need it. But really, to get the juicy benefits out of an adaptogen, you need to take it for at least a period of time. 

And cycle them? I don't think you have to cycle them. It's not like a probiotic in my opinion, although, ideally, it's not a Band-Aid forever. So adaptogen should be working to rebuild your system, balance your system, and support your immune response, support stress resilience.

So you may not need the same type of adaptogen all the time. Maybe you're in a period of time or something's happening in your life where you need that sort of extra energy or an energizing adaptogen, and then maybe there are other times that you need something that's more calming or rebalancing. So you could cycle because of how you're using it, but not cycle like you have to for some reason.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

I would repeat something I tell my patients a lot, which is that I am focused on long-term wellness. And so, I often say, “This is a marathon, not a sprint,” that I'm not going for quick fixes. Right? I'm going for rebalancing, for restoring health. And so, I tend to prescribe things in a wellness perspective over months, if not longer.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

That makes sense. I used to talk a lot to my patients about taking things in three-month windows, because I feel like, so many things in the body cycle in three-month phases. Your red blood cells are cycling about every three months. Your skin recycles and sheds, your hair, your gut lining. So many things are on this three-month cycle that I would ask patients to at least take a full cycle, see how they feel, and then, depending on the need or what they're trying to address, it may take more than one cycle.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

You get a whole new body in how many years?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

I'm hoping for that. Right?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. Me too.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

I'm going for that complete replacement. So is there a best way to take adaptogens, a capsule, a tea, a tincture, or a powder? And does it matter? Does the form affect how well they work or how quickly they work?

Dr. Amanda Frick:

I think that probably depends on who you ask. So if you're just asking me, I would say it's more of a personal preference. And then in most cases, it probably doesn't matter as long as you're taking it. So compliance is the most important part. I could say that I'm going to be super old school. If I was taking a Chinese formula, I'm going to make myself drink a decoction, or I'm going to get granules. I'm going to mix it in water, and I'm going to drink it, and it tastes bad, and I'm going to do it anyway.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. It does. Inevitably. Yeah.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

But other than that, if I'm not going to take it every day, what good is it doing me? So if I could put it in a capsule or I can put it in a capsule for my patient, and that means they're going to be consistent, that's the most important part.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And one thing I would add to that is, it also depends on the source. You might have an alcohol-based tincture that's much stronger than a powder just because of the way it's produced. But that depends on the person that's making the tincture.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah, and then what you're willing to tolerate. I would love if people just took tinctures, but people don't want to take tinctures, and you're talking to a person who would down a valerian tincture and just make it work.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Yeah. That's brave.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. Nasty feet.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

And you can only do so many tinctures in a day, in my experience. Let's say I can only do so many tinctures in a day, because it's like, "Oh, a shot of this and a shot of that." But it's much easier to take capsules.

Dr. Amanda Frick:

Yeah. Have you ever had a tincture break? You probably don't carry a handbag, but if you had a tincture break in your handbag, you'll start to resent some tinctures pretty fast too.

Dr. Robert Rountree:

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. All right, folks. That's all the time we have this week. Be sure to leave a comment and subscribe to the show. We'd really appreciate that. Thanks for listening, and thank you, Amanda, for podcasting with me again.

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Thanks for listening to The Thorne Podcast. Make sure to never miss an episode by subscribing to the show on your podcast app of choice. If you've got a health or wellness question you'd like answered, simply follow our Instagram and shoot a message to @thornehealth. You can also learn more about the topics we discussed by visiting thorne.com and checking out the latest news, videos, and stories on Thorne's Take 5 Daily blog. Once again, thanks for tuning in, and don't forget to join us next time for another episode of The Thorne Podcast.